Kung fu fighting

[aussie1981]

My BSCLF sifu's Vince and George fought in the old South East Asia comp, fingerless gloves and anything goes except shot to the groin and ground fighting. Vince came second, phenonemal fighter.

[ginosifu]

Combat Sambo has an interesting rule set. Again - why re-invent the wheel when you can find organizations already doing what we're talking about here?

These are all fine rule sets, however how many CMA school will be able to attend any of these events? Do we steal their rule sets and just apply them to CMA tourneys? I don't mind using other peoples ideas that work well, but they have to be able to modify it to meet the needs of CMA players.

I think it would be better to take the top Tournament going sifus and put their heads together and make up a good rule set that meets the needs of the modern Kung Fu tournament going student.

Take these ideas and see what we can do to adjust any ruleset;

Do we fight on Wrestling mats or regular floor?

Do we break up a clinch at 3,5 10 seconds or not at all?

Do we allow throws on a hard floor?

Do we give special points or scoring for well put together kung fu techniquess?

Do we allow facial contact or only head gear contact(sides and top)?

Do we allow ground fighting at all?

I am NOT interested in creating another San Shou or San Da. This is only a kung fu style fighting competition. San Shou, MMA, BJJ all are good and already have their place in competition. Can we create a stand up style kung fu rule set that works well?

ginosifu

[MightyB]

Mooying started a thread like this on the Mantis forum. My thought was basically use San Shou rules except change to the MMA glove and weight key Mantis techniques higher in points so you'd reward a guy for using the concepts he trains. These would be if he snags with a diu sau and strikes the guy - it should count more than just a jab... or if he pulls of an Ou Lou Choi - you get the drift. That works for Mantis. As far as an open... I'd borrow the Sport Jiu Jitsu rules and just say they're kung fu. The only area that it's probably lacking is in the cup choi style strikes that some of the southern styles use.

These are all fine rule sets, however how many CMA school will be able to attend any of these events? Do we steal their rule sets and just apply them to CMA tourneys? I don't mind using other peoples ideas that work well, but they have to be able to modify it to meet the needs of CMA players.

I think it would be better to take the top Tournament going sifus and put their heads together and make up a good rule set that meets the needs of the modern Kung Fu tournament going student.

Take these ideas and see what we can do to adjust any ruleset;

Do we fight on Wrestling mats or regular floor?

Do we break up a clinch at 3,5 10 seconds or not at all?

Do we allow throws on a hard floor?

Do we give special points or scoring for well put together kung fu techniquess?

Do we allow facial contact or only head gear contact(sides and top)?

Do we allow ground fighting at all?

I am NOT interested in creating another San Shou or San Da. This is only a kung fu style fighting competition. San Shou, MMA, BJJ all are good and already have their place in competition. Can we create a stand up style kung fu rule set that works well?

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

We mock what we don't understand.



I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight... I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position.... this is what we got.

There's nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There's wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It's beautiful to finish.

Yeah, I remember the beautiful drama of Ken dry humping Royce for 30 min.
That loving moment still brings tears to my eyes.

[Ray Pina]

I remember seeing a tournament in Wisconsin online that did Lei Tai matches with MMA style gloves and the face cages, (which suck) but that I felt was a step in the right direction.

I used to get that a lot about the caged masks when I was teaching.... when I informed them they didn't need to where the mask, that it was only an option, then they didn't suck so bad and wanted to keep them on.

[ginosifu]

UFC can get real boring real fast when it's just rolling and looking for a choke out for 5 minutes. Seriously boring.

It's like when someone says do you like watching golf?
I say, no, but I enjoy playing it.

UFC style mma is like this. All too often teh fights are too short or too protracted with the man hugs. This means for every 20 fights, you get to see 1 that's actually not a bad fight.

I would like to see san shou with the option to G&P on a take down or throw and if a guy can get it going, then break it and let em try again.

We mock what we don't understand. I prefer no time limit. When I work hard to get a guy down and I have great position I like to milk it, make the other person suffer, carry my weight... I fight in venues with 5 minute rounds. Broken up in three rounds. Sucks to end a round in great position.... this is what we got.

There's nothing more beautiful than an uninterrupted fight. There's wonderful drama involved. There is so much subtle battling going on for position in the ground game. If you knew what to look for its just as rewarding as seeing a nice strike. In some ways a great strike requires an element of luck (guard down, run into, etc.) Setting up an escape/reversal is beautiful. It's beautiful to finish.

Ray... I would to state that this not a mock on MMA. I have 2 older gentleman that I teach Tai Chi to. They have NO martial backround and have never sparred in their life. Both came up to me on several occasions and asked:

"Sifu, have you ever watched that Spike channel cage fighting stuff?" Of course I said yes. "What is it?" I replied it is a type of full contact fighting. "Is there any style to it, cause it looks like they a just brawling, no skill, no style just brawling?" "It was kind of boring.... they just rolled around in their underwear, laying on the ground with no technique"

These statements come from many who are not in the martial arts and find UFC fights boring. Myself, I can see skill, positioning, timing etc etc, but I also get bored watching 2 guys laying there for 5 minutes doing nothing but laying on each other.

DJ is not mocking MMA but making a valid point. If kung fu can make a rule set that meets the needs of CMA players, I would like to see limited ground fighting.

ginosifu

[faxiapreta]

In the begenning, I didn't like the 3 seconds rule. One of my students in Baltimore tournament did a beautiful "leg twist" throw. Since it was done between 3 - 5 second, her throw didn't count. Later on I realize that the 3 seconds rule may be the only way that doesn't turn a San Shou match into a wrestling match.


It's just like the 3 seconds rule in San Shou. If you can't throw your opponent within 3 seconds, your throwing skill is not good enough. If you can't put an arm bar on your opponent with in certain amout of time, your ground skill is not good enough.

In the real life we have to finish the fight ASAP before the cops come. We just don't have all the time in the world. It's better to train for "time efficiency" IMO. If you love a girl, you should marry her. A beautiful girl will not wait 10 years for you. That's just the reality.

The best wrestlers in the world do not get throws in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

The best ground fighters in the world do not get submissions in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

Your statement is the equivalent to saying if a boxer cannot get a KO in under 3 seconds, his skill is not good enough.

When you limit your ruleset to 3 seconds, you limit the skills your fighters will be able to develop.

[faxiapreta]

Myself, I can see skill, positioning, timing etc etc, but I also get bored watching 2 guys laying there for 5 minutes doing nothing but laying on each other.

I doubt you have much of a clue what is going on there. If you did, you would see the positional ground chess match that goes on in pretty much all pro-level MMA matches these days.

[MightyB]

The best wrestlers in the world do not get throws in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

The best ground fighters in the world do not get submissions in under 3 seconds when they are going against equally skilled opponents.

Your statement is the equivalent to saying if a boxer cannot get a KO in under 3 seconds, his skill is not good enough.

When you limit your ruleset to 3 seconds, you limit the skills your fighters will be able to develop.

Actually a time limited rule forces better action. The best, most-skilled people will rise to the top.

Look at the 1:30 mark in this video.

Limited ground fighting, spectacular matches.

[Taixuquan99]

I think it would be better to take the top Tournament going sifus and put their heads together and make up a good rule set that meets the needs of the modern Kung Fu tournament going student.

Tournament going sifus whose students fight consistently, possibly. However, sometimes it's better to design an idea first and then determine, from the opinions of other qualified people, the parts of the idea that need selling, that need tweaking, and that don't further the goals that drive the idea, ime.

Do we fight on Wrestling mats or regular floor?[/quote]

With throws allowed AND real full contact, I suspect that using a regular floor will either discourage people from throwing or lead to injuries that will make the tourney controversial or unpopular. If we're already using gloves, I think mats are also appropriate.

Do we break up a clinch at 3,5 10 seconds or not at all?

I say not at all. First, there's nothing un-kungfu like about a clinch, and second, if someone can't break it, nor get a throw or takedown, one will once someone gets tired and makes a mistake.

Do we allow throws on a hard floor?

See my comments on mats, and, if we're trying to make a ruleset for kung fu, how can we rule out shuai?

Do we give special points or scoring for well put together kung fu techniques?

This is a tough one. Do we encourage moves that cannot necessarily be fully carried through, but are relevant towards hurting, or stick only with bread and butter moves of the more concussive, but not necessarily crippling, variety? I don't know the answer to this one. On the one hand, practicing at least getting the position on a crippling move is important in kung fu, so I can see an argument for this. Conversely, sticking to what can be fully carried out without having to assume the results(because they are obvious) has its merits, but, when you don't include highly dangerous techniques, do you also embolden fighters to fight in a way, and pursue approaches that, were dangerous techniques present, they would be unwise to do?

Tough one. Extra points for certain techniques? Extra points and separate upon their execution(to avoid the "I just ignored the fact that you totally took leg positioin and could have locked out my knee except for your kindness, and punched you in a way that could never have happened had you carried through)? Or just stick to less dangerous techs?

Do we allow facial contact or only head gear contact(sides and top)?

Facial contact, too many kung fu techniques are ruled out by the other option, if we limit it so, we may as well just stick with the other rulesets out there, they're no more limited in many cases than not allowing facial contact.

Do we allow ground fighting at all?

Allow applying typical leg takedowns, etc, as used from the floor in many kung fu styles. If wanted, later introduce open divisions for striking, open divisions for all ranges, etc.

[David Jamieson]

I doubt you have much of a clue what is going on there. If you did, you would see the positional ground chess match that goes on in pretty much all pro-level MMA matches these days.

Please don't get going with personal snipes.
I will delete them.

I have little tolerance for it.

So, know that.

thanks for your co-operation

[faxiapreta]

Actually a time limited rule forces better action. The best, most-skilled people will rise to the top.

Look at the 1:30 mark in this video.

Limited ground fighting, spectacular matches.

Umm... that's a highlight clip where the best and most exciting techniques are taken out and emphasized.

Go to a judo tourney and what you will normally see is a 85% of the time spent jockeying for positional and grip dominance to set up the throws.

[faxiapreta]

Of course, first you have to decide what your goal with this "kung fu fighting" is.

Is it to create the best fighters?
Is it to put on the most exciting matches for the audience?
Is it to make the most money?

The goals will determine the rulesets.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I doubt you have much of a clue what is going on there. If you did, you would see the positional ground chess match that goes on in pretty much all pro-level MMA matches these days.

Are you seriously going to sit there and say that the UFC and other large MMA venues don't have guys that lay and pray?? Come on man, I know you are a hardcore MMA nutrider, but take the blinders off. When someone is constantly moving for dominant position and throwing strikes and trying for submissions it's one thing, but I still see plenty of guys, especially in the guard, who get lazy and throw just enough to keep from getting the fight stood back up to run the clock down and squeak out a victory.

[ginosifu]

Of course, first you have to decide what your goal with this "kung fu fighting" is.

Is it to create the best fighters?
Is it to put on the most exciting matches for the audience?
Is it to make the most money?

The goals will determine the rulesets.

Just a place for kung fu fighters to express their style. Not interested in money, not interested in audience, not interested in creating the "Best Fighters" only a place for CMA people to test their skills and use what they were taught.

ginosifu