Kung fu fighting

[faxiapreta]

Most wrestler will develop bad habit by getting into a clinching situation and wait to hope their opponent can make certain mistake so they can take advantage on.

It's called counter-fighting and it's not a bad habit.

This kind of wrestling match is boring to watch.

If you make the rules for what is "boring" vs. "non-boring", you will sacrifice the development of the fighters' abilities.

[MightyB]

It's called counter-fighting and it's not a bad habit.




If you make the rules for what is "boring" vs. "non-boring", you will sacrifice the development of the fighters' abilities.

Actually it doesn't... you're wrong on this - basically there's been a movement for what are called "Tachi Waza" tournaments in Judo to foster skill development and eliminate bad habits. Here's a partial rule summary from a recent tournament in Lima Ohio:


Please Take The Time To Read And Understand The Following
We are modeling this event after developmental tournaments that are offered in some areas in Europe and one presented in the USA by Mr. Jim Hrbek and held in Texas. The format is specifically designed to get people LOTS of Judo and LOTS of fights. In ALL cases, every division will be a round robin division. No division will have more than eight participants. In a division of three you would have two fights, in a division of eight, you would have seven fights.

In addition to the goal of getting a lot of fights, the aim of a standing or tachi-waza tournament is to foster and aid in developing more throwing techniques. There should not be significant emphasis on penalties, however, the potential for a normal penalty during a match will weigh in the final decision of a match. Emphasis is on getting down to business and scoring with throws. COME WITH INTENTIONS TO THROW YOUR OPPONENT. To that end, all matches will be ONE minute. In case of no score, there will NOT be a Golden Score but a referees’ decision instead.

There is NO mat-work in this format. When competitors go to the mat, they will stand back up. Stalling will take away any earned point.

Since these events allow only a short time to win decisively, they generate a lot of excitement and are a lot of fun in addition to the challenges.

Elimination: ALL divisions will be held in the Round Robin format. That will allow 10 points for an ippon win, 7 for a wazaari, 5 for a yuko and 1 for a decision. At the conclusion of the round robin, the winner will be the person with the most wins. In case of a tie, the winner will be the person with the most points. In case of a continued tie between two individuals, the winner of the head-to-head match will be the winner. In case of tie among three or more, the tied persons will fight another full round robin among themselves.

RULES of the matches:
Attire
Judo gi of legal size. Women need a white T-shirt or white leotard.
Must have your own White & Blue Belts
All competitors must bring and wear footwear when not on the mat
Duration: All matches are ONE minute.

Submissions
➢ There will be NO chokes or armbars in any division (this includes standing chokes or armbars.
Penalties
➢ No score will be awarded for illegal techniques.
➢ Leg grabbing clarification: Grabbing and touching of the leg will NOT constitute a disqualification. The offender will receive a warning on the first offense. A penalty would be awarded for additional actions. In the event of a tie, the leg grab will weigh in the final decision.

Additional Rules
➢ Mat Area will be smaller than the IJF guidelines in order to help aid play within the limited amount of time. Safety areas are provided according to regulation.
➢ Electronic Scoreboards will be used
➢ IJF Medical Rules prior to 2003 for Juniors and Masters
➢ IJF Medical Rules will be used for Seniors
➢ Players must report on time or they will lose their match

[David Jamieson]

if this happens at a Judo tourney

Referee, "Shido... stalling - one more and you're disqualified".

true. and quickly, but lack of aggression and not entering loses you points in boxing as well and in kick boxing.

I think in ufc you actually get points for merely holding the centre of the ring as well.

[Southwind]

In the 1970's kung fu schools did not associate with karate and had their own events. The fighting in the kung fu events was always full contact. Wai Hong and the Eastern United States Kung Fu Federation sponsored events. So did Jow Gar Dean Chin in washington DC. Fighters like Paul Vizzio and Zab Judah's father began in these events

The acceptance of kung fu in the main stream meant they went to karate tourments and did the pont sparring. Worst thing to happen to kung fu

[ginosifu]

Gino,

Have you and John ever considered changing the rules at your tournament and doing something like this? That could be a start in the right direction, at least in Ohio and the surrounding areas.

I spoke with John today about it and he was into it but a bit cautious. Like I said before Liability stuff is bad news here. Insurance comapnies won't insure certain types of events and if they do it's an arm and a leg to cover any events that house "Full Contact". He stated if we could hammer out some of these issues, he would be willing to pay the extra amount for insurance:

Smaller gloves mean more finger related injuries; Scratches, accidental eys pokes, hyper extended and broken fingers. Maybe he was thinking along the kuo shou lines with the face shield...?

Flooring: any grappling or ground work would means getting extra wrestling mats. BTW wresling mats new go for $5000 - $6000 + shipping. The new style puzzle mats would probably be about $2000 + Shipping. (What this boils down to is: If no one comes to his tournament and he gets all this stuff he would be kinda screwed. So he would need everyones participation)

Clinching would have to be limited. I am guessing like San Shou - 3-5 seconds and break them. With smaller gloves.. peeps will start throw uppercuts and haymakers and knees and elbows leading into more injuries.

I am not sure about ground, I dont think 30 seconds is to bad. He did not have an issue with the ground, He just stated if they ground why not mma?

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

Agree! This will encourage people to
- move in,
- apply their throw, if fail,
- move back, and
- wait for next chance.

This is the "fast hands wrestling" spirit.

Most wrestler will develop bad habit by getting into a clinching situation and wait to hope their opponent can make certain mistake so they can take advantage on. This kind of wrestling match is boring to watch. In traditional Chinese wrestling rule, the referee will stop both fighters and start them all over again.

Some new Chinese wrestling rules will give 3 points for an overhead throw, 2 point for a throw remain standing, and 1 point for a throw that lose balance. The new rule also encourage better skill development.

Since pull guard will make your body to touch to the ground and lose that round first, both pull guard and jump guard are not encouraged in the Chinese wrestling rules. This will force people to develop their throwing skill instead of taking the short cut.

I agree with this approach as well. This is the way I was taught SC. My teacher told me stories of Master Chang, that if he "Touched someone.... they were thrown immediately".

When I fought in Beijing... I fought the Coach. His Name was Tien... man he was fast.. everytime he touched someone... he immediateley threw them. I am not talking wait 2 or 3 seconds and throw, I am talking during his enter he had already started his throw and by the time he actually touched them, they were flying in the air. Just to let you know... he threw me like that too. However, I did get my infamous Knee Seizing on him Once!

It's called counter-fighting and it's not a bad habit.

Counter fighting does not neccessarily mean skill. Just because you wait for someone to make a mistake does not mean skill on your part. It means they messed up and you took advantage. Granted I will say people do fight like this and it does work for some people. I remember times when I was really tired and just clinched and hoped for my opponent to make a mistake. It does happen but I would not consider it a good thing to practice doing.

Generally skillful stuff looks good. People go oughhh ahhhhhh in the crowd. People would cheer loudly everytime I 3 pointed someone. No one cheered when I clinched the whole last round and beat a guy 1 to 0.

ginosifu

[PalmStriker]

Agreed. That's why I don't watch soccer, golf, baseball. But to tune into an MMA program and than complain about having to watch grappling Go to a tournament or seminar to watch two expert Judoka and complain about watching a grip battle and not many throws

There's a place for just punching: boxing.

Place for just wrestling, SUMO.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I spoke with John today about it and he was into it but a bit cautious. Like I said before Liability stuff is bad news here. Insurance comapnies won't insure certain types of events and if they do it's an arm and a leg to cover any events that house "Full Contact". He stated if we could hammer out some of these issues, he would be willing to pay the extra amount for insurance:

Smaller gloves mean more finger related injuries; Scratches, accidental eys pokes, hyper extended and broken fingers. Maybe he was thinking along the kuo shou lines with the face shield...?

Flooring: any grappling or ground work would means getting extra wrestling mats. BTW wresling mats new go for $5000 - $6000 + shipping. The new style puzzle mats would probably be about $2000 + Shipping. (What this boils down to is: If no one comes to his tournament and he gets all this stuff he would be kinda screwed. So he would need everyones participation)

Clinching would have to be limited. I am guessing like San Shou - 3-5 seconds and break them. With smaller gloves.. peeps will start throw uppercuts and haymakers and knees and elbows leading into more injuries.

I am not sure about ground, I dont think 30 seconds is to bad. He did not have an issue with the ground, He just stated if they ground why not mma?

ginosifu

I know where you are coming from. At least in Ohio you guys have some options. We can't even have amateur kickboxing in West Virginia. The last time they tried the commision made them do no leg kicks and no head kicks, which pretty much left the torso for roundhouse, front, and side kicks. Horrible rules.

Anyway, sure there would have to be some rules tweaked and what not. I would not allow knees until the advanced division, maybe make it a 5 second clinch rule for novice and intermediate than a 10 second clinch rule for advanced. As for grappling in does go into the MMA realm however I still feel this is beneficial for ground control and dominant position practice. Of course the competitor has the option, if he throws his opponent and does not want to go down to the ground he can simply allow his opponent to stand back up. I would make a rule that states no striking a downed opponent while in the standing position. You could also give the ref the option to stand both fighters back up before the 30 seconds if you have a guy who did a takedown and is just laying on his opponent trying to recover, absolutely hate the lay and pray fighters you have in MMA!

Also for ground you could avoid ground and pound by only allowing punches to the body and no knees or kicks on the ground. This way it is simply 30 seconds of trying for a submission. Many amateur MMA venues have applied this rule.

I have several ideas Gino, please let me know if you guys are interested and I would be happy to write down a complete rules set.

[Kansuke]

Place for just wrestling, SUMO.

And folkstyle, and freestyle, and Greco...

[taai gihk yahn]

In the 1970's kung fu schools did not associate with karate and had their own events. The fighting in the kung fu events was always full contact. Wai Hong and the Eastern United States Kung Fu Federation sponsored events. So did Jow Gar Dean Chin in washington DC. Fighters like Paul Vizzio and Zab Judah's father began in these events

The acceptance of kung fu in the main stream meant they went to karate tourments and did the pont sparring. Worst thing to happen to kung fu

and of course, in those "old skool" Chinatown-style tournies, it was all so above board, you NEVER had the "old boy" network doing things like showing blatant favoritism / having prearranged "winners" depending on who paid how much to who, etc., etc. so yeah, it was much better for "kung fu" when you had convicted gangsters running things...

[lkfmdc]

it was much better for "kung fu" when you had convicted gangsters running things...

Well

(1) the events the gangster guys did in the 70's and 80's WERE full contact after all, much better than point sparring any way you cut it

(2) as I mentioned somewhere else, the fact those events were so "gangster" was kind of a good thing, tons of blood, torn open skin, brawling, nasty, ie REAL

Not kung fu theatre or "channel 5 pai"

As Gene and I discussed, 30 years ago kung fu was still at least about fighting

[David Jamieson]

and of course, in those "old skool" Chinatown-style tournies, it was all so above board, you NEVER had the "old boy" network doing things like showing blatant favoritism / having prearranged "winners" depending on who paid how much to who, etc., etc. so yeah, it was much better for "kung fu" when you had convicted gangsters running things...

this still happens today.

grossly unqualified individuals running tournaments basically to rake in cash and to hell with any substance.

It's cooler when this mag puts on an event. At least, by all appearances it doesn't appear to be like what you are talking about, whcih I don't doubt as I have witnessed these ridiculous cowardly behaviours in the kf circles i walked in back in the day.

grubby little mucky mucks, they cower at a glare for pete's sakes I have no idea how they come to power among each other.

[lkfmdc]

this still happens today.

grossly unqualified individuals running tournaments basically to rake in cash and to hell with any substance.

oh my G'd

I am going to AGREE with Jamieson..........

[donjitsu2]

oh my G'd

I am going to AGREE with Jamieson..........

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh my G'd

I am going to AGREE with Jamieson..........

Dammnnnit !!!