What do you teach somone during thier first Wing Chun Class?

[wingchunIan]

The simple fact of the matter is the way Wing Chun is commonly taught (confirmed by the comments here) is to put the art before the fighting. This IMO is the wrong way around.

Go to any boxing, MMA or Muay Thai school and theory is figured out WITHIN framework of;

1) conditioning, and;
2) sparring.

This is why these arts are EFFECTIVE and Wing Chun, not so much.

Suki

As someone who practised MT for many years I'd have to disagree. In a first MT lesson a student is normally taught simple footwork and guard along with the jab and cross, front kick and round kick. The techniques would be trained on pads and combined with cardio work.
Sparring is a way of applying and testing what has already been learned not a place for learning technique

[Wu Wei Wu]

Ian,

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

People have interpreted WC as a form based art. Which means the form takes precedence/priority as a teaching method. Some schools dissect the form and construct individual drills, other schools might take elements of the forms and work those movements within the frame of chi sao. (Unusually, some schools might also do pad work and gor sau/sparring but this does not tend to reflect the way fighters would actually fight either in a ring or on the street).

Boxing, MMA and Muay Thai are not form based arts. They take fighting moves and train them within the frameworks of e.g. pad drills, sparring and technical drilling where resistance is provided by partner. In short, you train to fight - you do not train to do forms!!! The question therefore becomes one of realism in the training method. Wing Chun is generally taught in a way that seldom reflects real fighting.

Also IME sparring is a great place to see weaknesses in a fighters game which can help them find new ways of training to eliminate them (i.e. learning technique).

Suki Gosal

[YouKnowWho]

Also IME sparring is a great place to see weaknesses in a fighters game which can help them find new ways of training to eliminate them (i.e. learning technique).

Agree with you 100% there.

The 1st day that I sparred, I realized that when my opponent punched at my head, I didn't have to block it but just to move my head out of the striking path. When I started to learn forms, I started to pay attention to those "dodging' moves in the form training. Unfortunately, I could not find any.

[LoneTiger108]

When I started to learn forms, I started to pay attention to those "dodging' moves in the form training. Unfortunately, I could not find any.

Not that I'm a fighter or anything close to it, but from your comment here I would ask immediately who taught you the Wing Chun Forms? Because, imho, they didn't teach you much!

I must be clear too here. There is nothing to go 'searching for' within the forms if you have actually been taught. They're specific and require specific teaching and if you find yourself on your own and without your Sifu before you finish the training, it is only then that you end up searching. And this search can lead you to dead ends much of the time, but that's not the systems fault at all.

To give an example, I spent about 3 years in SLT alone, my Sifu spent 5 without ever seeing CK or BJ. There is much to learn in SLT and many drills that can be used to maximise your understanding (as we are all aware of aren't we?) and I had access to the wooden man, poles and knives during this time. I was also very lucky to have a teacher that encourages questions!!

[LoneTiger108]

People have interpreted WC as a form based art.

I know this is common now Suki, but that is 100% due to Ip Mans influence as it was he who taught his curriculums with the forms as a priority due to the nature of what he wanted to accomplish.

My Sifu, and many others too, do not teach that way at all.

Of course the forms are very very important, and I can say that fme I have coached the entire 1st form without the student knowing that that was what I was doing until I actually showed the 1st form as a whole set. Everything we do originates in SLT and I was harrassed all the time "when you gona teach SLT??!!"

And then you have those 'Mr Miyagi' moments with students

[CFT]

And then you have those 'Mr Miyagi' moments with students

You've got very clean cars and now flystudio has white-washed walls?

[LoneTiger108]

You've got very clean cars and now flystudio has white-washed walls?

LOL! Not exactly what I meant Chee! I do all my own chores at Flystudio


I'm talking of those momennts when the 'penny drops' (and not into my pocket either!! )

[YouKnowWho]

There is nothing to go 'searching for' within the forms ...

This is the general TCMA issue and not just the WC issue. There are only 3 hand skills exist in all MA styles and there are:

1. left arm block and right arm punch.
2. double switching hands (right arm block, left arm takes over the blocking, right arm punches again).
3. dodge and punch back.

Example of 1 are WC Tang Sau and finger attack to the eyes, ... Example of 2 are Taiji "fetching arm", ... Example of 3 are ???

Just because the "solo" form training, your opponent does not exist in your training, to add a "dodging" move in the form make no sense beause there is no reference point. If you only train form, you will not train the "dodging - move your body to be outside of your opponent's striking path" concept enough.

In the other thread "Wing Chun - Why doesn't Pak sau work?" The guy tried to use his Pak sau to stop the punch instead of moving his body out of the striking path. It's a good example that "dodging" concept might not be part of his daily training.

[anerlich]

In a form where most lineages stand stock still (working "structure"), have next to zero footwork and do not bend the spine or neck during SLT, I find it hard to accept that "dodging" moves are included therein.

Unless you have some clever TCMA way of training dodging in which you don't actually train dodging.

You probably need to work with a partner anyway as dodging necessarily involves timing and distancing.

Better explain yourself, Spence.

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;1120037]Ian,

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

This thread is about what is taught in an opening lesson. I was merely reflecting on the assertion that MT and other arts teach around sparring and conditioning, based upon my experience of MT. I've never come across a good MT school that puts students into sparring in their first lesson and conditioning is a long term result so not relevant. Like WC in MT the techniques are learnt in the air first before hitting pads and bags and progressing on to sparring.
To clarify for other posters, I also never said that sparring wasn't about learning, I said it wasn't a place for learning technique but rather a place for learning how to apply what you have already learnt. Even simple evasion such as bobbing and weaving in MT and boxing is, in my experience, taught "in air" and trained on pads before being explored in sparring.
WC for me is no different learn the shapes, footwork etc, drill it in partner exercises, refine it in forms practice, explore it in chi sau and test it in pressure testing (I don't do sparring). Obviously not everyone trains this way but that is a choice of individuals rather than an inherent property of WC.

Only my opinion of course based on my own experience.

[GlennR]

Agree with you 100% there.

The 1st day that I sparred, I realized that when my opponent punched at my head, I didn't have to block it but just to move my head out of the striking path. When I started to learn forms, I started to pay attention to those "dodging' moves in the form training. Unfortunately, I could not find any.

Question for you YKW..... do you practice rear weighted stance (90:10) or 50:50?

[YouKnowWho]

Question for you YKW..... do you practice rear weighted stance (90:10) or 50:50?

I like rear weighted stance. But I think 10:90 is too conservative. It's too easy to be run down. If I play offense, I use higher 30:70. If I play defense, I use lower 40:60. I like to use the stance that I can "spring" forward anytime I want to (or spring backward and run like hell).

[GlennR]

I like rear weighted stance. But I think 10:90 is too conservative. It's too easy to be run down. If I play offense, I use higher 30:70. If I play defense, I use lower 40:60. I like to use the stance that I can "spring" forward anytime I want to (or spring backward and run like hell).

Thanks
What i find when using the 10:90 stance is that, if you square the stance up, you can shift your body over the weighted leg which effectively shifts your torso a bit.

Obviously your head moves with it

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks
What i find when using the 10:90 stance is that, if you square the stance up, you can shift your body over the weighted leg which effectively shifts your torso a bit.

Obviously your head moves with it

That's very true. It's a very important part of the WC concept.

[couch]

[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1120241]

Ian,

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

This thread is about what is taught in an opening lesson. I was merely reflecting on the assertion that MT and other arts teach around sparring and conditioning, based upon my experience of MT. I've never come across a good MT school that puts students into sparring in their first lesson and conditioning is a long term result so not relevant. Like WC in MT the techniques are learnt in the air first before hitting pads and bags and progressing on to sparring.
To clarify for other posters, I also never said that sparring wasn't about learning, I said it wasn't a place for learning technique but rather a place for learning how to apply what you have already learnt. Even simple evasion such as bobbing and weaving in MT and boxing is, in my experience, taught "in air" and trained on pads before being explored in sparring.
WC for me is no different learn the shapes, footwork etc, drill it in partner exercises, refine it in forms practice, explore it in chi sau and test it in pressure testing (I don't do sparring). Obviously not everyone trains this way but that is a choice of individuals rather than an inherent property of WC.

Only my opinion of course based on my own experience.

Not to gang up on you in any way, shape or form; but I'm wondering how long in your MT school did you kick air for before moving onto pads and heavy bags?