Eye-Gouging in Tanglangquan

[mooyingmantis]

The eye-gouging methods of Tanglangquan were mentioned in a previous thread as one of the techniques Sifu Brendan Lai had mastered.

That discussion led me to check out some of the basic facts about the technique as revealed in the forms of Qixing Tanglangquan, Taiji Tanglangquan and Liu He Tanglangquan.

Here are my preliminary notes:

Various Names found in Quan Pu:

螳 螂 點 睛
táng láng diǎn jīng
Praying Mantis Dots the Pupils

抹 眉 干 眼
mo méi gān yǎn
Wipe Eyebrow & Jab Eyes

雙 刁 手 取 眼
shuāng diāo shǒu qǔ yǎn
Double Hook Hands, Take the Eyes

掛 刁 取 眼
guà diāo qǔ yǎn
Hang Hook, Take the Eyes

指 路 三 針
zhǐ lù sān zhēn
Three Needles Point to the Road

Select Forms Containing Eye-Gouging:

Beng Bu
Tanglang Shou
Li Pi
Cang Hua
Hei Hu Jiao Cha
Bai Yuan Xian Shu
Bai Yuan Xian Tao
Dan Cha Hua Quan
Tanglang Chu Dong

Feel free to add your thoughts and comments.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is the problem for the striking art. When you have 2 eye balls on your finger tips, it's very difficult for jury to say that you are innocent. compare to the following:

A: Dear judge, we got into argument. Our body tangled on each other. We both fell down. His head hit the ground and cracked his skull. His death was a pure accident and I didn't do anything.
B: Why did you eat his brain then?
A: I was hungry.

[-N-]

When you have 2 eye balls on your finger tips, it's very difficult for jury to say that you are innocent.

That happened when we both fell down too

[mooyingmantis]

Here is the problem for the striking art. When you have 2 eye balls on your finger tips, it's very difficult for jury to say that you are innocent.

John,
You make a valid point and a humorous analogy.

However, self-defense is a dirty task. An attacker has already proven that he does not respect your rights, nor does he value your physical and emotional well-being.

Will you really hold back and risk being maimed or killed because you are afraid of the legal ramifications? In a true self-preservation situation you will fight like you trained. Your attacker will also fight like he trained. Was mercy on his mind during his training?

If attacked, I will kick, gouge, bite, etc. to survive the encounter. I believe in an actual encounter, most will try to do the same. Isn't it better to be prepared with the most effective techniques?

[YouKnowWho]

雙 刁 手 取 眼
shuāng diāo shǒu qǔ yǎn
Double Hook Hands, Take the Eyes

If you swing your hand across your opponent's eyes, you may have better result. 5 fingers x 2 eyes = 10. You will have 10 chances to have any of your finger hit one of your opponent's eyes. One of my MA friends always carrys a bottle of red pepper. He always throws the red pepper at his opponent's eyes before his attack. It's pretty much the same principle. A groin kick followed by a cross fingers eyes attack, you can then jump in and beat the sh!t out of your opponent.

[mooyingmantis]

John,
Great strategies!

If you swing your hand across your opponent's eyes, you may have better result. 5 fingers x 2 eyes = 10. You will have 10 chances to have any of your finger hit one of your opponent's eyes.

The finger fanning you describe is found in the Tanglangquan form 白 猿 献 果 - bái yuán xiàn guǒ - White Ape Offers Fruit. The technique is called: 三 抹 眉 - sān mǒ méi - Three Times Wipe Eyebrows.

A groin kick followed by a cross fingers eyes attack, you can then jump in and beat the sh!t out of your opponent.

This strategy is found in 黑 虎 交 叉 - hēi hǔ jiāo chā - Black Tiger Crossing. In the technique 雙 刁 手 取 眼 - shuāng diāo shǒu qǔ yǎn - Double Hook Hands, Take the Eyes the opponent's lead arm is swept to the side while executing a front lifting kick to the opponent's lead leg or groin. While the opponent is distracted by the low kick, the Mantis practitioner stabs the opponent's eyes using a scissor hand strike with the rear hand.

[RenDaHai]

If you swing your hand across your opponent's eyes, you may have better result. 5 fingers x 2 eyes = 10. You will have 10 chances to have any of your finger hit one of your opponent's eyes. .

I like a similar technique to MO MEI called 'Jin Sha Fei Zhang' Flying sand palm (like throwing sand in your opponents eyes).

You do it the same as mo mei except you also swipe the eyes when you return the hand. So it swipes once across both eyes on the way out and then returns along the same path and swipes again, doubling your chance. Often followed by a cheeky tiger claw to the happysack with the other hand. (Together called Hai di lou yue, fish the moon out of the sea).

[mantid1]

I think it is an interesting post and mooying seems to put a lot of thought into the forms.

It does bring up a good point. I have taught many people through the years and i believe that many of them that will not fight at least moderate contact would have a hard time striking a person let alone gouging them in the eyes.

Im a firm believer in taking the first shot if possible, if not "if you start late you must finish first". No, not a sucker punch....if I now it is inevitable im going for it. It is more difficult if you have never fought. I have my doubts about gouging someones eyes...but if I was sure it was a life or death scenerio I think I could. Many different levels to fighting from settling it with psychology to ripping their heart out with your teeth.

[RenDaHai]

@Mantid1

I know what you mean, people don't like to do these kind of techniques. But we don't always mean trying to tear the eyes out. The mo mei technique is just like a swipe of the end of the fingers across the eyes, it won't do permanent damage (necessarily) and in terms of psychological 'squemish-ness' I think it is easier than punching someone straight in the face.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It has been my experience that for eye-gouging to work that the head needs to be "immobilized" in some sort of way.
One must recognize that there MAY come a time when crippling an attacker is an option that must be used.

[mooyingmantis]

I think it is an interesting post and mooying seems to put a lot of thought into the forms.

Thanks Dave! As a traditionalist, I take forms study and practice very seriously. I remember you were also quite adept at forms yourself when I was privileged to have met you.

It does bring up a good point. I have taught many people through the years and i believe that many of them that will not fight at least moderate contact would have a hard time striking a person let alone gouging them in the eyes.

I agree, students must be desensitized to the horror of these types of techniques. Over the years I have taught women's self-defense/rape prevention classes and have developed methods of desensitizing the participants to the grossness of applying these extreme techniques.

Im a firm believer in taking the first shot if possible, if not "if you start late you must finish first". No, not a sucker punch....if I now it is inevitable im going for it. It is more difficult if you have never fought. I have my doubts about gouging someones eyes...but if I was sure it was a life or death scenerio I think I could. Many different levels to fighting from settling it with psychology to ripping their heart out with your teeth.

Again, I firmly agree. Eye-gouging must be a preemptive strike. The attack must be sudden, committed and violent, or it will not work. Rolling around on the ground or having one's panties around their ankles is the wrong time to start a technique like this. Biting works better there.

@Mantid1

I know what you mean, people don't like to do these kind of techniques. But we don't always mean trying to tear the eyes out. The mo mei technique is just like a swipe of the end of the fingers across the eyes, it won't do permanent damage (necessarily) and in terms of psychological 'squemish-ness' I think it is easier than punching someone straight in the face.

Good point as far as people's willingness to attack in this way, rather than sticking fingers through a squishy eyeball! Though there is also the risk of only pi$$ing off the attacker more if you are not able to fully incapacitate them within seconds after attacking their eyes. Eye-gouging must be violent and extreme.

It must also NOT be seen as a "finishing" move. It must be followed by more incapacitating attacks. Once the attacker loses an eye he may: 1. lose his fighting spirit, or 2. realize the seriousness of the situation and begin fighting ever more maliciously to save his own life.

It has been my experience that for eye-gouging to work that the head needs to be "immobilized" in some sort of way.

Perhaps in a grappling scenario. But my feeling is that once it goes to the ground, eye-gouging drops low on the list of techniques that I would include to end the encounter.

Excellent feedback guys!

BTW, I have used an eye attack of the mo mei variety in a self-defense situation. It worked as I had drilled it! My opinions are not just based on theory and forms practice.

[EarthDragon]

my shifu who was good friends with branden lai, always said he liked to poke the eyes, that way he didnt have to put much effort into fighting and would end the confrontation quickly and easliy. My shifu would joke and say "maybe cuz he not want to mess upa hisa hair do".

But then he would always say when teaching fight winning techniques, "remember its not HOW you won the fight, its IF"

[-N-]

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pansy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03MiposHT60

[MightyB]

Pansy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03MiposHT60

Man I used to love segal before he got all weird.