Wing Chun - Why doesn't Pak sau work?

[Violent Designs]

This is a good example that it's better to rotate the body to block a punch (body connected) instead of just move the arm without moving the body (body disconnedted).

Many years ago, the 7 star prey mantis master Brendan Lai challenged me in speed. He said that he could strike my back shoulder and I could not even use my leading arm to block it.

- We both started with right side forward with both arms down.
- His right leading hand striked at my left back shoulder.
- I rotated my body to my left.
- My right forearm blocked his right arm.

Brendan had tried 3 times and I had intersected all 3 of his punches.

Instead of trying to use my hand to intersect his punch, I moved my left shoulder out of his striking path. Whether my right hand could intersect his punch or not is no longer important at that moment.

was this a challenge? you gave him no face haha.

[Vajramusti]

was this a challenge? you gave him no face haha.

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The late sifu Lai wasa good man. I used to buy CMA supplies from him.

joy chaudhuri

[YouKnowWho]

was this a challenge? you gave him no face haha.

It was not a true challenge. Brendan was my quest. Since Adam Hsu was also there, I had to try my best. If Brendan's hand could hit my back shoulder, his hand could hit my head too.

[Phil Redmond]

What block, technique, parry, etc., would work against a stationary target that is a beat behind an attack? Unless the video had another point it proves nothing. I know for sure that a pak can work in street fights and in competition.

[trubblman]

What block, technique, parry, etc., would work against a stationary target that is a beat behind an attack? Unless the video had another point it proves nothing. I know for sure that a pak can work in street fights and in competition.

Exactly. If you watch a lot of video demos carefully you see this mistake being made all the time. The attacker usually begins his attack before the defender. Most times it is imperceptible because the attacker is moving his feet or body before his hands. The defender is usually standing still. This is why the attacks always work. I call this the crash test dummy idea. As long as you have passive, stationary defender most techniques will get by a defense.

In the video the demonstrator should have had the defender stepping side to side or moving back and forth before he launched his attack. The defender would have had more advantage. I think a different convo would have been elicited on the board.

Having said that, all I have is the demo in front of me. The way I think I would have defended is not to wait for the attacker's punch. I would have tried to punch first, used a tan sao, or fuk sao, body dodge or head fake, rather than pak sao.

[Wayfaring]

Instead of trying to use my hand to intersect his punch, I moved my left shoulder out of his striking path. Whether my right hand could intersect his punch or not is no longer important at that moment.

Another good thing about turning your facing like this is that when you do now you have structure - your elbow is aligned correctly with the rest of your body giving support to the pak and allows you to pak thru the opponents center.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What block, technique, parry, etc., would work against a stationary target that is a beat behind an attack? Unless the video had another point it proves nothing. I know for sure that a pak can work in street fights and in competition.

I think that the solution that this teacher intends to get at is that it is necessary to stand at the correct fighting measure/distance. People stand stationary, doing drilling and forms slowly at first. It seems to me the first time that you start them on developing real-time maneuvers they stand to close where things like a pak are less effective just like the video. I think that it happens a lot.

[Violent Designs]

So what do you guys think is the difference between a WC pak sao and a parry in boxing (or how another style uses pak sao).

[HumbleWCGuy]

So what do you guys think is the difference between a WC pak sao and a parry in boxing (or how another style uses pak sao).

As a generalization the boxing parry is close to the body and just aids with a slip. the pak is a bit longer range and pushes the opponent's strike off the centerline. WC guys will also use the pak like a wind shield wiper to catch lead straights which is something that boxers will sometimes do if they don't catch it.

Now having said that, nothing really. Good WC men use it like a boxer at times, and good boxers use it like a WC man a lot too. At low levels you see some more distinction. At high levels not so much.

[Violent Designs]

As a generalization the boxing parry is close to the body and just aids with a slip. the pak is a bit longer range and pushes the opponent's strike off the centerline. WC guys will also use the pak like a wind shield wiper to catch lead straights which is something that boxers will sometimes do if they don't catch it.

Now having said that, nothing really. Good WC men use it like a boxer at times, and good boxers use it like a WC man a lot too. At low levels you see some more distinction. At high levels not so much.

Thank you for your input.

[YouKnowWho]

how another style uses pak sao.

The intention is different here. In that WC clip, the guy tries to reach his hand to his opponent's arm in a 90 degree angle. The prey mantis "掛(Gua) - comb hair" is applied in 45 degree angle (toward yourself) to your opponent's striking arm. As long as your opponent's striking arm passes beside your head, you don't care whether the punch missed just 1 inch or 1 foot. The purpose of "掛(Gua) - comb hair" is to change the incoming force vector a little bit so it will miss your head.

[imperialtaichi]

To make it work:

1. don't try to catch the punch. Start the move as soon as the opponent twitch.
2. don't try to catch the punch, cover the second gate (elbow).
3. don't try to catch the punch, charge in and knock the opponent off balance.

Boxers and punching specialists do feints and combos REALLY fast. Chasing hands is suicidal. Must knock down the opponent's momentum straight away so he has to deal with you, instead of you dealing with him.

[GlennR]

To make it work:

1. don't try to catch the punch. Start the move as soon as the opponent twitch.
2. don't try to catch the punch, cover the second gate (elbow).
3. don't try to catch the punch, charge in and knock the opponent off balance.

Boxers and punching specialists do feints and combos REALLY fast. Chasing hands is suicidal. Must knock down the opponent's momentum straight away so he has to deal with you, instead of you dealing with him.

Well put John, hows things anyway?

[Subitai]

My 1st reaction even before he threw the 1st "testing" punch was....

He's already in my range, he was too close to start with. He wouldn't be able to just do that without receiving something from me 1st.

It reminds me of some a-holes who kinda sneak up on you at a party, get REALLY CLOSE to you and say..."Oh you know Martial arts huh?" "Well what you would do if I did this...?"

Of course, i'm used to seeing this crap so the solution is to reach out quickly and give them a fast slap to the face, prefferably before they can even finish thier last sentence. They always react the same way saying: "Wait, I wasn't ready or What did you do that for?"

To which I respond, " you want me to wait for you to get very close so you can trick me?????" "Are you stupid?"


Also without a bridge, the guy receiving the punch should use more Periphirial Vision and not look at his hands. Already been said i'm sure.

too much to b!tch about...me no likey

[bennyvt]

The difference wit h boxing is with the forward pak sao not really the side one. It can be turned into a strike if controlled by the elbow. Which means that if it is a fake you just hit him, its only when it contacts with a really strong punch that you. Would need to stop it in the pak sao position