Wing Chun - Why doesn't Pak sau work?

[k gledhill]

All this sounds good and the vid looks impressive too against a wooden dummy or willing student.

But the BIG missing part of the equation here is BREAKING STRUCTURE.

Until you understand that part of the energy equation, all this technique talk is just an illusion.

Sorry to rain on the parade here. But strikes on the centerline will only get you so far.

Breaking structure is chisao warrior speak, your misinformed, unless you mean breaking a jaw, then I agree.
Chi-sao with two extended arms exchanging energy can be misleading without proper coaching. Over indulgence leads to frustration and arm games for dominance or simple lack of goals, leading to mistakes like "structure breaking" ...the structures only there because your drilling with a guy in a similar fashion. When do you do this ina fight except similar 'poses' like clinching ? We dont do chi-sao to become expert clinchers.
The by-products of our drilling develops sensitivity to structure but its not the idea we try to emulate with a guy who hasn't got a clue what I do or how I fight.
I let him turn, make moves as I angle, shift, strike, according to the opportunities. I never seek to break structure, if it falls apart its becuse Im attacking as a unit of mass in motion with an attitude on

Breaking structure aka chasing something other than to hit a guy, we strike as a primary idea.

[Phil Redmond]

Pak sao is the slapping (energy) used. Just as Tan (dispersing) is the energy used. Pak and gam can look similar but they have different "intent". You can slap up, down, forward, to the side. It doesn't matter. We have a saying in TWC. "Don't live in a box". The more WC people fight outside of the comfort zone of their friends. The more you'll see where I'm coming from. People say our tan is too high. I could say theirs is too low since most fighters are headhunters. If it works for you then it's all good.

[duende]

Breaking structure is chisao warrior speak, your misinformed, unless you mean breaking a jaw, then I agree.
Chi-sao with two extended arms exchanging energy can be misleading without proper coaching. Over indulgence leads to frustration and arm games for dominance or simple lack of goals, leading to mistakes like "structure breaking" ...the structures only there because your drilling with a guy in a similar fashion. When do you do this ina fight except similar 'poses' like clinching ? We dont do chi-sao to become expert clinchers.
The by-products of our drilling develops sensitivity to structure but its not the idea we try to emulate with a guy who hasn't got a clue what I do or how I fight.
I let him turn, make moves as I angle, shift, strike, according to the opportunities. I never seek to break structure, if it falls apart its becuse Im attacking as a unit of mass in motion with an attitude on

ALL the vids you have EVER posted ONLY show arm games.

If you honestly think that Phillip Bayer Pak Sau can stop someone with REAL momentum. Then you are seriously drinking Kool Aid.

If you don't control your opponents COG then you will be overwhelmed and at the mercy of the take down, collapsed structure, and/or backing up energy.

You talk like fighters don't know how to trace energy and shift angles as well.

You foolishly think you have some greater wisdom that no one but you WC PB buddies have. That must be why you guys break so many jaws in the mma world right?

Fine...

If you don't think Pak can be used to break structure and set-up a strike in the same beat... then we can agree to disagree.

But don't kid yourself into thinking that only PB understands WC Pak Sau technique. He only understands his VERSION of WC Pak Sau.

[k gledhill]

Pak sao is the slapping (energy) used. Just as Tan (dispersing) is the energy used. Pak and gam can look similar but they have different "intent". You can slap up, down, forward, to the side. It doesn't matter. We have a saying in TWC. "Don't live in a box". The more WC people fight outside of the comfort zone of their friends. The more you'll see where I'm coming from. People say our tan is too high. I could say theirs is too low since most fighters are headhunters. If it works for you then it's all good.

Tan is training a punching concept so its pointing as high as your head fighting because I'm hitting your head, not blocking but when doing SLT, dan chi-sao , etc...training the elbow, we do it low so the elbow doesnt hinge up and down. We want a low elbow so it creates the cutting punch lines inside jum, and out tan. The tan doesnt leave the center in SLT or drilling for a reason, it is trying to lin sil di da using the 'spearing/stabbing' force to "displace as I hit the face" IF I MEET anything on the way.


you can combine any energy as you need pak to jut, jut to pak , inside jut, outside jut, bong slap to jut , there are no fixed responses. Our thinking of chi-sao is this action reaction, energy bad, good ? not there at all....to make the students focus on their striking techniques rather than fighting in chi-sao with dual arm exchanges.
Not an arm wrestle trying to manipulate arms that we wont be able to do at speed anyway.

tans ELBOW uses kinetic , ballistic , displacing energy while the FIST STAYS CENTERED, and wrists x the line sweeping, lin sil di da, jum is its partner in attacks, also lin di daring.
Try turning the tan palm up, suddenly , sharply, to a vertical palm as you strike forwards. This shows this elbow outward action, while striking.

The dan chi-sao drill uses jums inward elbow control versus the tans expanding elbow, each punch is displacing the other on the center while each strikes forwards. no sticking feeling bs.
Just two simple punches being developed for fighting later.

[k gledhill]

ALL the vids you have EVER posted ONLY show arm games.

If you honestly think that Phillip Bayer Pak Sau can stop someone with REAL momentum. Then you are seriously drinking Kool Aid.

If you don't control your opponents COG then you will be overwhelmed and at the mercy of the take down, collapsed structure, and/or backing up energy.

You talk like fighters don't know how to trace energy and shift angles as well.

You foolishly think you have some greater wisdom that no one but you WC PB buddies have. That must be why you guys break so many jaws in the mma world right?

Fine...

If you don't think Pak can be used to break structure and set-up a strike in the same beat... then we can agree to disagree.

But don't kid yourself into thinking that only PB understands WC Pak Sau technique. He only understands his VERSION of WC Pak Sau.

okay your now talking in a way I agree, terminology wars ! yes pak sao will 'turn/disrupt' a structure, word games. We try to TURN the structure so it cant face us to hit us or take us down or work 100% at us. Sure we angle out of the way of momentum too, we dont stand and try to be ultimate blockers. but we break with BALLISTIC force not holding hands over trapping etc...
So apologies if terminology issues are in question.
I have this with PB students visiting too, we have the same ideas and techniques but one Zurich branch may refer to a toi ma paksao as man sao, and we call it tomato

We do think like fighters can shift as we do, never implying elitist superiority. At the end of the day its the person not the style MMA or VT. Who trains like a spartan and has heart with technique and little luck on the day.

Our pak sao is trying to be structure breaking if thats what your implying, but easy to break guys regardless of size and strength with levers and axis lines, knowing the subtle methods to disrupt or to allow the structure to disrupt itself by over turning , over-reaching, these are the skills we work on like any fighter.
Any fighter can benefit from this.

We dont try to 'stop' momentum attacks unless it meets our fist , we use it against opponents, iow we drill to stay in balance delivering force attacking without becoming 'played ' ourselves by over stretching our limits of controlled momentum/motion, facing etc...

[Phil Redmond]

Tan is training a punching concept so its pointing as high as your head fighting because I'm hitting your head, not blocking but when doing SLT, dan chi-sao , etc...training the elbow, we do it low so the elbow doesnt hinge up and down. We want a low elbow so it creates the cutting punch lines inside jum, and out tan. The tan doesnt leave the center in SLT or drilling for a reason, it is trying to lin sil di da using the 'spearing/stabbing' force to "displace as I hit the face" IF I MEET anything on the way.


you can combine any energy as you need pak to jut, jut to pak , inside jut, outside jut, bong slap to jut , there are no fixed responses. Our thinking of chi-sao is this action reaction, energy bad, good ? not there at all....to make the students focus on their striking techniques rather than fighting in chi-sao with dual arm exchanges.
Not an arm wrestle trying to manipulate arms that we wont be able to do at speed anyway.

tans ELBOW uses kinetic , ballistic , displacing energy while the FIST STAYS CENTERED, and wrists x the line sweeping, lin sil di da, jum is its partner in attacks, also lin di daring.
Try turning the tan palm up, suddenly , sharply, to a vertical palm as you strike forwards. This shows this elbow outward action, while striking.

The dan chi-sao drill uses jums inward elbow control versus the tans expanding elbow, each punch is displacing the other on the center while each strikes forwards. no sticking feeling bs.
Just two simple punches being developed for fighting later.

Tan means to disperse or spread. I learned Cantonese so that I could understand the terminology. Please explain what Tan means to you regarding Wing Chun.

[k gledhill]

Tan means to disperse or spread. I learned Cantonese so that I could understand the terminology. Please explain what Tan means to you regarding Wing Chun.

tan sao is a pre strike drilling position of the leading arm using the outside of the forearm..

When the arm strikes forwards we let the elbow spread off the line, while the hand
Strikes forwards. lin sil di da of one arm side
Now imagine using the same leading arm to strike but you need to use the inside of the arm ....jum.sao.

When fighting we use the arm leading and striking to both sweep and defend a line to us.
Because we try to turn or fight turned opponemts our leading striking arm needs to use
Either side as we chase after guys or counter angle etc...

[Graham H]

Tan means to disperse or spread. I learned Cantonese so that I could understand the terminology. Please explain what Tan means to you regarding Wing Chun.

Yes it does but its a concept for punching in our lineage not blocking like you WC guys do it! You see its easy to misinterpret what these actions mean which is common in Wing Chun. The Tan Sau punching concept does spread out and disperse when the punch is driven forward we use the outside of the elbow to clear the way for the punch should there be obsticles in the way. Two totally different ideas of Tan Sau and two totally different ideas on Ving Tsun Kung Fu Phil!

Ving Tsun is a boxing system. Its about punching not blocking! We learn to punch and defend/open the way for the punch in one action. Until I was exposed to this idea I wouldnt have understood it myself.

GH

[k gledhill]

mobility and proximity and angling using :

Dui Gok Ma - "Side-facing Stance" *for cleaning the center - 50% less work* our pre fighting posture to 'sweep the zone' as we attack using [Da Sao Jik Siu Sao / lin sil di dar]

Juen Ma - "Pivoting/Turning Footwork" *for using Hip elbow simultaneously* as chum kil to develop our balance/force/axis point as we hit

Seung Ma - "Forward Attacking Footwork" *special work to create structure* 1/2 step to 'stalk' the opponent

Tui Ma - " (Side-angling stepping) Footwork in chisao" *special work to create structure and attacking/counterattacking positions .

Mobility is required to work this idea, something many schools lack aside from lead leg back and forth in straight lines , charges with egg beater from hell punches striking air furiously

iow without movement your tan would have to become a block 'spreading' off line using two hands parallel because your standing still and turning to block or your in the center of the opponents two arms and dont know elbow striking , lin sil di da...waiting to block.

[k gledhill]

More specific to the leading strike, is Da Sao Jik Siu Sao attacking hand is also simultaneously the deflecting/defense/block hand .



So tan and jum are the basic striking and deflecting in a spearing action, stabbing in.

In SLT many are missing the JUM sao in the 1st section : tan huen fook JUM wu

so cant develop this unity of opposite striking forearms.

Lin siu di da is continuous attack/deflection/defense, generally.

[Phil Redmond]

Yes it does but its a concept for punching in our lineage not blocking like you WC guys do it! You see its easy to misinterpret what these actions mean which is common in Wing Chun. The Tan Sau punching concept does spread out and disperse when the punch is driven forward we use the outside of the elbow to clear the way for the punch should there be obsticles in the way. Two totally different ideas of Tan Sau and two totally different ideas on Ving Tsun Kung Fu Phil!

Ving Tsun is a boxing system. Its about punching not blocking! We learn to punch and defend/open the way for the punch in one action. Until I was exposed to this idea I wouldnt have understood it myself.

GH

I try not to use the word block because to me that implies using force. I like the terms parry and deflection. So are you saying that WC only strikes but doesn't defend by using parries and deflections? Every standup martial art has blocks/parries/deflections.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Response to:
Wing Chun - Why doesn't Pak sau work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlSRp3b7Ns4

Phil, this is a good video. You address several critical issues in improving reaction. I want to attempt to summarize your points.
1. Look at the elbow to improve perceptual speed.
2. Turn sideways to narrow yourself as a target so your pak doesn't have to travel as far.
3. The pak improves even more as you add footwork. Creating distance between you and your opponent and circling forces the opponent into more preparation to strike which give us more time to react.

What I liked most about your video is that as you added more levels to it the pak became more effective.

[CFT]

So are you saying that WC only strikes but doesn't defend by using parries and deflections?

The parry or deflection is applied by the punching arm, as the fist carries the punch. Two outcomes from one action.

[WC1277]

The problem with using the same arm you're attacking with to deflect and then continue the attack is that it's too many movements and lost timing beats. Once the attacking arm gets moved off the line and switches to deflection it inherently loses a 'beat'. It's far more efficient to switch.

We only have two arms. The shoulder that is forward in an attack becomes active and committed, so to speak. You nervous system has to turn it off, then back on to change course. Your rear shoulder/arm, however, is already turned off, so it inherently has a faster reaction time.

This concept is the whole point of the majority of the forms, especially the punching. When you punch in the forms, one elbow pushes out, one elbow pulls in. The exact same motion as pulling a rope. Unless you can figure out a way to pull a rope with one arm and not allow any slack, you're already going against body mechanics and timing.

It's not Wing Chun, it's an add-on....

[Graham H]

I try not to use the word block because to me that implies using force. I like the terms parry and deflection. So are you saying that WC only strikes but doesn't defend by using parries and deflections? Every standup martial art has blocks/parries/deflections.

No I'm not saying that "WC" doesn't defend by using parries and deflections. You do it so it obviously does. What I'm saying is that our thinking is different to yours and it is better to spend less time discussing what needs to be shown in person.

I viewed your pak sau video and everything in my lineage goes in the opposite direction. Thats not to say that you are wrong and I am right it just means that we practice two very different versions of Kung Fu.

YouTube and WC????? Bad combination! Ok for looking at how one moves and for a little bit of fun but for explanations and justifications it is pants! You cannot judge ones skill and force by viewing video and like I said before...you can make many thing happen when two people are "co-operating" with each other!

GH