northern mantis challenge matches

[sanjuro_ronin]

Only one - but not many train to be that fast. They forget that that was the point. Take forms training for instance. They learn it at a learner's pace - they then learn to perform it at their own pace... but they never push it, my Si Gung - the last of the truly great HK masters, always said that you had to aspire to move as fast as you possibly can move to get the most out of forms training (while still having correct hip movement and power). NOBODY trains that consistently - they learn to be pretty, to perform the form - my Sifu did the entire sup a sou form in less than 7 seconds. He was a blur of motion - but he still did it with the correct power. He's the last that moves that way... no one else - no other "Sifu" that's alive can do it that way. Just him. But - we could, if we aspired to it, and trained to do it, move that fast. But we don't because it's hard... and we don't look so pretty when we move that fast, we can't do it with the correct posture and hip movement... whine whine whine.

I think you may be assuming too much.
Sorry.
Sugar Ray Leonard had fast hands, does that mean every boxer that trains his way will have just as fast or faster?
Nope.
Exception stories stay with us because they ARE exception and NOT the norm.

[MightyB]

I think you may be assuming too much.
Sorry.
Sugar Ray Leonard had fast hands, does that mean every boxer that trains his way will have just as fast or faster?
Nope.
Exception stories stay with us because they ARE exception and NOT the norm.

But all boxers have fast hands as compared to the average individual.

Honestly - stick with tai chi or baji or something that has a moderate or long and short pace - 7* isn't for you. 7* Mantis is supposed to be fast. Anyone can train to be fast - as fast as their body allows - unfortunately you're offering them an excuse to NOT train to their potential. "Oh, I can't possibly be as fast as so and so, so I can sit on my arse and do things my way. " Quit - do something else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But all boxers have fast hands as compared to the average individual.

Honestly - stick with tai chi or baji or something that has a moderate or long and short pace - 7* isn't for you. 7* Mantis is supposed to be fast. Anyone can train to be fast - as fast as their body allows - unfortunately you're offering them an excuse to NOT train to their potential. "Oh, I can't possibly be as fast as so and so, so I can sit on my arse and do things my way. " Quit - do something else.

I don't think that pointing out that the exceptions are exception is an excuse.
It's being realistic.
Not everyone is going to be as fast as Usain Bolt are they?
If YOU take it to me that realizim is undermining ones potential that is fine and you are entitiled to that opinion.
If you want to use unproven anecodyes and stories about exception masters as motivation, I don't find anything wrong with that.
It's not as if that has ever backfired in TCMA.

[MightyB]

I don't think that pointing out that the exceptions are exception is an excuse.
It's being realistic.
Not everyone is going to be as fast as Usain Bolt are they?
If YOU take it to me that realizim is undermining ones potential that is fine and you are entitiled to that opinion.
If you want to use unproven anecodyes and stories about exception masters as motivation, I don't find anything wrong with that.
It's not as if that has ever backfired in TCMA.

Part of why TCMA kind'a sucks is because of unrealistic expectations based on fantasy associated with the powers of chi and such - and also because of lack of any kind of realistic expectations. To not know why - or what - or how - a style is supposed to work in it's most idealized state is to not know the style or be able to know the style. All the old stories of 7* deal with amazing hand speed and trapping combinations. To ignore that aspect is... dumb. To not know the methods of training to get that speed is ignorant. To ignore the advice of those who came before you who achieved that speed is ritarded.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Part of why TCMA kind'a sucks is because of unrealistic expectations based on fantasy associated with the powers of chi and such - and also because of lack of any kind of realistic expectations. To not know why - or what - or how - a style is supposed to work in it's most idealized state is to not know the style or be able to know the style. All the old stories of 7* deal with amazing hand speed and trapping combinations. To ignore that aspect is... dumb. To not know the methods of training to get that speed is ignorant. To ignore the advice of those who came before you who achieved that speed is ritarded.

You do realize that the advice that Cus D'amto gave Tyson on how to hit, he gave to all his fighters.
There is nothing wrong with what you are saying dude, my point is that to rely on the exceptional examples and make them the standard is unrealistic.
No kyokushin fighter expects to hit as hard as Oyama ( some actually hit harder as a matter of fact).
No Judoak expects to be as good as Mifune.
Strive to get there, yes of course, but being realistic of ones potential is crucial for the student AND for the teacher.
A student that is bodywise, best suited for the other aspects of Mantis, shouldn't feel downplayed because he can't hit the the lightening speed of his teacher, eh should be taught to fight with HIS strengths.
To say that Mantis is all about speed is to say that Hung Kuen is all about power or WC all about chain punching.

[MightyB]

To say that Mantis is all about speed is to say that Hung Kuen is all about power or WC all about chain punching.

Ahhh but it is... maybe CodeBoy can give the exact quote about Fan Che (something), Tong Long (something) - it's like a 6 word poem in Cantonese that I can't remember - but it basically says it all. Mantis is about speed and deception - that's its strength.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ahhh but it is... maybe CodeBoy can give the exact quote about Fan Che (something), Tong Long (something) - it's like a 6 word poem in Cantonese that I can't remember - but it basically says it all. Mantis is about speed and deception - that's its strength.

And in Judo, size and strength don't matter...

Allow me to reiterate my first point:
They MAY be fun, but they also lead to bad habits ( taking anecdotes as facts) and bad expectations ( just because Brendan Lai could knock your ass out before you even saw him move doesn't mean that is typical of a Mantis fighter).

[MightyB]

And in Judo, size and strength don't matter...

Allow me to reiterate my first point:
They MAY be fun, but they also lead to bad habits ( taking anecdotes as facts) and bad expectations ( just because Brendan Lai could knock your ass out before you even saw him move doesn't mean that is typical of a Mantis fighter).

You goofball - only in Judo elite competition does size and strength matter, but against an average Joe, a little guy can beat a big guy - I do it all the time. I'm 160 and routinely randori people that weigh in the 200 plus range and I do fine. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but overall I do fine. If I practiced more, I'd do better.

Your average mantite doesn't practice hard enough. Too much talk, too much tea room kung fu, not enough sweat, testing, and punishment. But if they did practice to the extreme, they could knock you out before you see it. You know one thing I take away from the great Master Lai about the ou lou choi? I'm going to paraphrase... but he said (paraphrasing) your defense with ou lou choi has to move faster and anticipate their offense. Think about that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You goofball - only in Judo elite competition does size and strength matter, but against an average Joe, a little guy can beat a big guy - I do it all the time. I'm 160 and routinely randori people that weigh in the 200 plus range and I do fine. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but overall I do fine. If I practiced more, I'd do better.

Your average mantite doesn't practice hard enough. Too much talk, too much tea room kung fu, not enough sweat, testing, and punishment. But if they did practice to the extreme, they could knock you out before you see it. You know one thing I take away from the great Master Lai about the ou lou choi? I'm going to paraphrase... but he said (paraphrasing) your defense with ou lou choi has to move faster and anticipate their offense. Think about that.

Actually, you don't need to get to the elite level for size to matter, that is why you have weight categories at any level.
As for what the Late Great Master Lai said, he is 100% right one and what he says has less to do with speed than you'd think.
Think about that.
I've seen older and slower guys light up younger faster guys and when they do it the older guys seem faster.
They aren't.

[MightyB]

Actually, you don't need to get to the elite level for size to matter, that is why you have weight categories at any level.
As for what the Late Great Master Lai said, he is 100% right one and what he says has less to do with speed than you'd think.
Think about that.
I've seen older and slower guys light up younger faster guys and when they do it the older guys seem faster.
They aren't.

They have weight classes in non-elite competitions because even Judo has its fair share of pu$$ies. So when I was a newbie green, I was at the Michigan open and there was a black belt super heavyweight that wanted to compete, yet all the browns that were in his weight category were too pu$$yish to shiai him and there were no blacks in his category. A middle weight black belt stepped up to the plate and Shiai'd him. He won. That's true Judo spirit. I've resolved it in my mind that I'd behave in the same way as that middle weight. Even losing would be a win in that circumstance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They have weight classes in non-elite competitions because even Judo has its fair share of pu$$ies. So when I was a newbie green, I was at the Michigan open and there was a black belt super heavyweight that wanted to compete, yet all the browns that were in his weight category were too pu$$yish to shiai him and there were no blacks in his category. A middle weight black belt stepped up to the plate and Shiai'd him. He won. That's true Judo spirit. I've resolved it in my mind that I'd behave in the same way as that middle weight. Even losing would be a win in that circumstance.

Well done by the BB.
And while I don't disagree with what you are saying in regards to the spirit of judo or 7* Mantis, I stand by my point that anecdotal stories of past masters have their pros and cons and in my personal experience i have seen more cons in TCMA than pros.

[-N-]

I have some suspicions as to who the other critic's Sifu was - if my suspicions are true, then his Sifu had a b'itch'n real life story that involves being so fast with the ou lou choi that he smacked a c'ocky euro-kick boxer in the mouth before he could blink.

Your suspicions are correct.

Not being a critic. Just stating the fact that my teacher didn't use stories of back alley fights with Wing Chun people to inspire us.

We did hear a little about them on occasion. But the inspiration was just from seeing him move while he taught class. He didn't tell us about Mantis. He just showed us.

He would tell certain people, "Less talk and more practice make one a better Praying Mantis." Kind of the antithesis to the existence of this forum.

I had one classmate who had little tolerance for talk. He would get a disgusted look on his face and end the debate with, "Then show me." Usually he and I just practiced off to the side on our own.

[-N-]

He didn't tell us about Mantis. He just showed us.

Then he would yell at us, "IT'S SO SIMPLE! WHY CAN'T YOU DO IT??!?!!"

[-N-]

Then he would yell at us, "IT'S SO SIMPLE! WHY CAN'T YOU DO IT??!?!!"

And if you got it right, then he would say, "Go help the others."

[Thomas316]

hello everyone, the replies just motivated me to work on my mantis forms. does anyone have drills to develop tremendous speed when performing forms?