Shotokan Karate

[Budokan]

"Shotokan even has a certain punch that supposedly there is no defense against"

There is no such punch in shotokan and I've never even heard anything or anyone (who knows anything about shotokan and MA in general) make such a claim.

"High kicks abound, as do spinning and jumping kicks."

Nope. Shotokan does have some high kicks (i.e. kicks above the waist), but they do not abound, nor are they regarded as part and parcel of the standard curriculum. Ditto for the spinning and jumping kicks. Shotokan isn't about flash. Repeat after me: Shotokan isn't about flash. Good boy.

"All of these techs are alright to learn but really are not prudent in reality for many reasons."

Perhaps, but you won't be learning a high kicks, spinning and jumping kicks in shotokan so the argument as to why they would not be prudent in reality (whatever that means) is an empty one.

"They do up to 30-35 kata, and many think this is overkill."

Wrong again. There aren't that many accepted kata in shotokan.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Budokan

Nope. Shotokan does have some high kicks (i.e. kicks above the waist), but they do not abound, nor are they regarded as part and parcel of the standard curriculum. Ditto for the spinning and jumping kicks. Shotokan isn't about flash. Repeat after me: Shotokan isn't about flash. Good boy.


Perhaps, but you won't be learning a high kicks, spinning and jumping kicks in shotokan so the argument as to why they would not be prudent in reality (whatever that means) is an empty one.


Wrong again. There aren't that many accepted kata in shotokan.

I guess I was wrong about the interpretation of what I saw being practiced. I did see the greens, browns and blacks practicing many high, fancy kicks. This was a JKA dojo that possibly integrated these kicks into their school's curriculum.

As for kata, I know that they use NahaTe and ShuriTe forms, and have seen the list for 2 schools that had over 25 kata in their syllabus. I know for the most part that this number is closer to 20.

Learning high kicks and a lot of kata is not bad. In Shorinkan we learn every kick imagineable, and 18 kata, with some sensei teaching 20 +. This includes the kihon or fugyu gata/kata as well as one step sparring and self-defense.

I always wondered why someone would do the Japanese version of Shorin+Goju. Why not train in either of the mother arts and see that the intent is identical, and there is no need to train in a more superficial form of these? I think Shotokan as a karate style is better than most, but lacking in some ways. These are just personal opinions though.

You asked about internal training and the Okinawan arts. In Matsumura ShuriTe, kigong is trained through the use of proper mechanics and posture (structural chi). All of this is accomplished through kata training. Repetitions of the same kata (at least 20 times) trains this. Making sure that your core strength and stability (the tanden) is maximized using sound physical principles (stance length and width, etc.) and proper alignment of certain anatomical structures is crucial in training. This trains the tendons and awakens them. For example using a shuto with your thumb in a checkmark position and the fingers extended to the ceiling, rather than tensing your fingers, tightly adhereing them to one another and locking the thumb against and resting just below the pad of the index finger, increases striking and structural stability. This is based on sound orthopedic principles, but the Chinese called it good "chi". Chi flows better when it is hampered by less antagonistic action. Makes since. Relaxation and tensing at certain moments is the key/ki.

In most karate styles, almost all, kumite or some other free-sparring stuff is used to teach ma-ai, toughness, pain acclimation, angles and such. How many of these styles are using karate vs. kickboxing techs though? Almost none. Certain Okinawan styles teach you how to use gross-motor movements, not flash, athleticism and dash to get the job accomplished. This is how you have to train and be trained in order for karate techs to be useful. Practically every dojo, dojang or training hall spars. Still you have many styles who can't fight with their art. They are just using modified western boxing concepts. So are they learning AND training in karate for self-defense, or are they learning dance routines to supplement their kickboxing in some way?

The style I first trained in, Shorin Ryu Shorinkan, is very similar to Shotokan sans the deep stances. We did have pretty deep stances for a ShuriTe style though. Many of our high ranking students came from a Shotokan background and it was hard for them to get the Goho out. It permeated their forms and kumite. Many commented how Shorin was more natural and utilized circular as well as linear concepts. They claimed that the "softness" evident in Shorinkan (which is not really soft at all) had increased their speed and stamina greatly. Less is "forced" through muscle strength in Shorinkan, but all-in-all it is very similar.

When I began to train in orthodox Shorin, Matsumura Seito, whipping action, pivoting and taisabaki were emphasized. There are absolutely no high kicks whatsoever, none. Stances are of med. width and length, and rooting and efficient stepping vs. bouncing or bounding is taught. The Shotokan BBs that now train with my sensei say there is a marked difference in strategy and execution. Tendon not muscle strength, is stressed, and tendon training is the order of the day. Iron Body is the Goho aspect of the art, and use of chi-ishi, kame, makiwara (for kicks and hand strikes), tetsu bo and bamboo bundle are integral for training. This is done without excess and in a proper non-injurious fashion. This is the external aspect.

We use a modified push hands drill as well as other "sensitivity" drills to enhance the internal. 2 man fighting sets abound. Many are not prearranged and your opponent goes after you. I have seen a few instances where arms and legs were injured because kime wandered. Focus is everything when doing these "drills". Again the aim is not muscular strength, but proper utilization of body mechanics, gravity, sinking power and angles. Body positioning is every thing. All of this is enhanced in repetitive forms practice. Now when I spar my Goju, Kenshinkan, Shotokan and TKD friends, there is less effort and the same result. Not to brag but Shorinkan is known for its strong sparring, and Matsumura makes slap-tag even easier to accomplish.

IMHO 2-man sets and fighting drills as well as bagwork, aerobics and other hojo undo are just as effective as constant, damaging kumite. Kumite is for beginners and tourney types. Free-sparring is really not karate whatsoever, but "hope" fighting.

More on chigong later.....

[phantom]

Seven Star, I agree with you about sparring full-contact being helpful to a practitioner, but only in moderation, as doing it on a regular basis will lead to permanent injury. However, I have seen karate schools' sparring sessions where, as soon as either you or your opponent land one good hit, you both have to stop, back away from each other, and start sparring again. It is definitely not a good habit to get into stopping after getting one good hit, unless that one hit is enough to stop the fight, which is rarely the case. Budokan, there was an article in Black Belt magazine some time ago where a shotokan black belt, a tae kwon do black belt, a wing chun sifu, and a japanese jiujitsu instructor were all asked what strategy they would use against Royce Gracie if they had to fight against him in the UFC. The Shotokan BB said they he could knock out any opponent, including Royce Gracie, with that particular punch. However, he claimed that a shotokan fighter only has a few seconds in which to throw the punch, and if he fails to connect with it, it cannot be attempted a second time. I also briefly studied washin-ryu karate under an instructor who also taught shotokan. He told me that such a punch does exist. I suppose this could just be a marketing ploy used by some shotokan instructors to attrack people to their schools. Omegapoint, I think one of the reasons people choose shotokan instead of shorin ryu is availability of schools. There are many places where you would have a very hard time being able to find one single shorin ryu anywhere near where you live. However, no matter where you live, you will most likely be able to find a shotokan school somewhere near you. As for tae kwon do being the most popular style, well I.T.F. tae kwon do was very heavily influenced by shotoakan, and many of the forms in both styles are just about exactly the same. I agree that shotokan is one of the better karate styles, but I think that you really need to find an instructor who teaches it as it relates to self defense situations to be able to make it work. However, I also believe that an extremely talented practitioner would be tough no matter what style he or she knows. Many people think that tae kwon do is cr@p, but I have heard of tae kwon do fighters soundly defeated kyokushin and muay thai fighters, and I do not doubt it for one minute. Peace.

[omegapoint]

You make very valid points. I agree that Shotokan and TKD can be very strong fighting styles. For Shotokan, another teacher that comes to mind is Oshima Sensei, and TKDs "Tiger" Battalion of the 'Nam era were legendary. People that I know and train with were stationed with many of these hardcore Korean guys and will tell you that what they did looked very similar to Shorin Ryu. Then again the karate that Funakoshi brought from Okinawa to the mainland did, too (see "Karate Jutsu"- by Gichin Funakoshi). I also tend to agree with those realists that state Shotokan is the father style of TKD. If you do your homework you'll find quotes from the founder and other Korean martialists that'll verify this.

I'm kinda' glad that most people don't get to train in "old school" (or should I say "older school") karate. Uechi, Isshin and Shorin are hard to come by for a reason. Treasures must be searched for. Not to say that the similar styles that are prevalent like ****o Ryu and Shotokan aren't treasures. Their intent seems to be slightly different though.

When the MMAs craze erupted I was happy to see a MAs format that was at the least hardcore. The problem was that many of the reps. for the striking styles just could not fight. You could tell that they were sport trained specialists, and most strikers were pure kickboxers regardless of style. Old-school karate styles teach all ranges of combat and this is evident in traditional Shuri- and Naha-Te forms. For example the kata "Chinto" has knee checks to uppercuts, throws, cross-collar chokes and knee on stomach techniques. If you don't understand the purer forms (Do vs Jutsu) you could never glean this. Also, if you've never fought for real you may never know that many of these movements were grappling or groundfighting in nature.

Competition and sparring (free-fighting) has become the measuring stick for combat efficacy. Neither are (nowhere) near the entropy of a street altercation. Breaks, rules and overall structure is proof that these contests, NHB or otherwise, are far from real, not to mention padded hands- what a joke! The first 3 UFCs were real free-fighting but there was still a cage to keep you from using full-mobility and a ref to step in when a fighter tapped or submitted. If you are mounted and getting beatdown, choked, or locked on the street you just might die or be seriously injured. People rarely break up fights, and the loser may be beaten half to death before the cops get there.

Shotokan likes to prove its mettle in a competitive format. The AAU and USKA is replete with Shotokan and Goju Ryu stylists. This is fun times and a good game where Gaijin speak in Japanese commands and break up the "full-contact" when a perceived strike connects. In reality you will punch and kick and control and strike and overwhelm your opponent from all sides. There is no "YAME!" or "HAJIME!", just a tackle, grab, haymaker or club to the head from any direction, etc.. There is no "STOP" or "BEGIN", just fight until the dust settles and the real score can be tallied.

Many styles teach the credo "Karate ni sente nashi" or "in Karate there is no first strike". Funakoshi coined this phrase and modern Japanese Budo exponents (which really has nothing to do with the Okinawan philosophy of fighting) like to repeat it over and over, and misinterpret its meaning continually. I think Funakoshi didn't want the Japanese to perceive Karate as the brutal art it can be. He wanted it to be on par with the Samurai traditions of the Japanese. The truth is that many early masters like Motobu and Itosu had accepted challenge matches from Western Boxers and accomplished Judoka, and both times the ferocity and efficacy of its techs was seen first hand, with the non-Okinawan stylist being soundly defeated. This is why Jigoro Kano and other Judoka wanted instruction in this art and even adopted many of the "atemi waza" or striking techs of karate. Some will claim that Atemi was an integral part of JJ, but many Judo techs are 100% old school karate self defense techs.

The reality is that most Okinawan purists teach a philosophy of "Sente" or strike first, after the situation has been evaluated and you know there is no other option. This, and other subtle nuances (including the differences in culture and dialect) were lost when Funakoshi and to some degree even Itosu, Azato and Miyagi "changed" karates intent. They gave the Japanese the commercial, school-boy versions and from this 98% of the karate seen today was developed. Some folks may think this is all hogwash but that is fine with the few purists out there. Karate was not meant to be learned by any fool. I had to "interview" with my current Shinshii before he would teach me. All of this being said, there are quite a few Okinawan karateka who cannot fight. The individual does make a difference, too.

Still Shotokan is a good karate-do style.

[SevenStar]

yeah, I pretty much agreed with what you said. If you've ever noticed, I'm always preaching that IMO, you shouldn't go full contact any more than onceor twice a month.

"However, he claimed that a shotokan fighter only has a few seconds in which to throw the punch, and if he fails to connect with it, it cannot be attempted a second time."

That sounds like some finishing move, be all end all anime type attack....that just strikes me as weird.

[rogue]

Don't know much about shotokan but I was amazed at how high Funokosi stances were in Karate-Jutsu. I was also surprised at the higher more natural width stances found in General Chois Encyclopedia. Kind of struck me that Choi, a shotokan man, changed the stances of his art back to the mor practical stances.

[old jong]

I have the pleasure to see a lot of Shotokan every weeks. There is a class just before my Wing Chun class at the center where I teach. I enjoy good friendship with the 6th degree BB instructor and we always talk about our martial arts. The guy teach old style traditionnal Shotokan and it is very impressive. No kick boxing or flashy high kicks there!...Only pure karate moves,real fighting applications and hard and passionnate training.They also practice intensively on the basic hean and tekki kata.The teacher is a firm believer that true Karate is found in the kata ,not in kick boxing moves.He always explain direct applications from the moves found in the kata. It is not a popular dojo because of this approach but, you get what real Karate is all about there.No musical kata there!

[Budokan]

That's true, Funakoshi's stances were higher than the deeper ones of today. I'm not sure why, although I've heard it's because Funakoshi was a pretty small man to begin with and if he lowered himself very much at all his face would be in line with the other guy's nut sack. Too, higher stances were more "traditional" back then. I guess the more things change the more they stay the same. Sometimes.

[rogue]

I train the wide deep stances in kata during warm up, but then switch to the higher more natural stances. I trained low stances and made them work but the return just wasn't there. I think Funakoshi had a high stance simply because that's how he trained. Don't forget he was an Okinawan karateka and they're karate was still practical. I think the Japanese tried to pretty up the some of the karate they learned to make it more Japanese.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Budokan
That's true, Funakoshi's stances were higher than the deeper ones of today. I'm not sure why, although I've heard it's because Funakoshi was a pretty small man to begin with and if he lowered himself very much at all his face would be in line with the other guy's nut sack. Too, higher stances were more "traditional" back then. I guess the more things change the more they stay the same. Sometimes.

Compared to other Okinawans he was probably about average height. The modified, low stances he adopted into Shotokan would place him at the perfect height to give a 6 ft. tall dude a good, straight groin shot or two! One punch, 2 ruptures, hahaha!

Yeah in fighting, somewhere in between is probably best. Too upright is not so good either. Bending the knees is always a good idea when fighting.

BTW, IMO, natural things usually make gradual changes, usually for better adaptation to the current environment. Man-made things can change rapidly for no reason at all. Oft-times to effect a selfish desire or to force an idea on the placid and/or unknowing. In my estimation few real things change at all. Perpectives just change when the origin is further from the"now", whatever that is.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by rogue
I think Funakoshi had a high stance simply because that's how he trained. Don't forget he was an Okinawan karateka and they're karate was still practical. I think the Japanese tried to pretty up the some of the karate they learned to make it more Japanese.

Again, Rogue you are on-point! The excuse made for deep stance training that many people use is that it conditions your legs. we have weights and other devices for that now. No more excuses unless you can't get access to a gym or weights. Trust me if you train like this it will become habit and that's the way you'll stand in a fight. Shorin, as compared to Goju, is about speed, positionng and mobility. All of these factors are hampered by unnatural stances.

BTW, one of the main fighting stances used in Orthodox Shorin is very similar to the one used by BJJ guys. Exactly the same in fact...

[rogue]

Omegapoint,
Right now I'm using the more natural stances in my ITF TKD hyungs without the sine wave/bounce action that Choi put in. Makes the techniques much smoother and faster. Also I'm not 5 foot tall. If I went deep and wide in proportion to my size it'd take me forever to move from point A to point B compared with someone smaller. I've noticed that Gen. Choi made some interesting changes to his Shotokan base when developing his brand of TKD as a karate killer, and two were the higher stances and lighter footwork.

You're right about the weights and modern training. I've seen, and experienced some traditional leg excercises that are just awful on the knees and hips. And I find I get faster results from modern training than the traditional leg work.

What stance is that OP? The t-stance or L-stance with hands up around chest level?

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by rogue
Omegapoint,

What stance is that OP? The t-stance or L-stance with hands up around chest level?

You got it bro. Almost identical to an old-school boxing stance.

Yeah, I have met and trained with numerous Shotokan, TKD, TSD and other striking stylists. I found that there were a lot of TKD guys overseas who were awesome competitors and fighters. The same for the Shotokan stylists that I have trained with. I think that many good karateka and Korean strikers are getting back to basics and fundamentals, althought there is no lack of tournament-lovers and Olympian wannabes.

I also believe that many serious martial artists regardlesss of ryu or style, will come to the same conclusions about fighting in a controlled/semi-controlled environment vs. fighting on the street. Caique, a BJJ 5th deg. BB under Rickson, a former teacher and current friend of mine, once remarked to me that he would NEVER try an armbar in a fight. He would opt for strikes, most likely elbows and such, to finish the job. He is a champion BJJ guy as well as former Rio street fighter. He, too, is always on-point!

In the end I guess it doesn't matter if you do Savate,Shotokan, S h ito Ryu, Lotus Kung Fu or MMAs. If you are evaluating techs honestly and effectively then efficacy in the real world will reveal itself to you if need be. I guess one of the reasons that certain arts are so prevalent is due to the fact that some offer more than others. Competition is the fuel for innovation worldwide and self-preservation methods can be reached from this venue, too. The overall practicality of something is a singular realization in the end.

[DragonzRage]

I don't know extremely much regarding karate, but from what I've seen Shotokan is a pretty popular traditional style. My guess as to why this is would be the following reasons:
1) Funakoshi
2) because of association w/ above, it is very widespread.
3) To my understanding the Shotokan method was designed so that it could be easily taught to a mass number of students at once. That means a greater output of proficient students.
4) techniques and methods seem pretty standardized, and lineage is pretty well established. That means less confusion about what Shotokan is and more cohesiveness of the Shotokan community at large.

As a practical fighting method, there are a lot of things about the style that don't appeal to me, but it definitely has its strengths. Another good thing I see about it is that whereas a lot of the more watered down commercialized karate nowadays has pretty half-a$$ed training, the Shotokan guys seem to have a pretty hard-nosed attitude about their training and their work ethic is pretty strong. But on the downside, I have seen a couple pretty tough Shotokan guys who were quick and strong, but in general I don't think the fighting standard is very high.

[Hardwork108]

This is Shotokan's Yahara.

Looks like a badass to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12UkQ...eature=related