How much Hop-Ga is in your Hung-Ga?

[TenTigers]

I personally feel Wong Yun-Lum made a huge contribution to present day Hung-Ga (Wong Fei-Hung line) and I am always researching Hop-Ga to get a better understanding of my art. I don't feel simply saying,"Well, we use gwa,cup, sow, been, etc.." is enough. Hop-Ga is an entire system, and to simply borrow a couple of hands is not the same as really knowing how to best employ these strikes. You must know correct tactics, otherwise the technique is greatly diminished.
How much do you draw from the techniques, training methods of Hop-Ga in your Hung-Ga teaching and training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally feel Wong Yun-Lum made a huge contribution to present day Hung-Ga (Wong Fei-Hung line) and I am always researching Hop-Ga to get a better understanding of my art. I don't feel simply saying,"Well, we use gwa,cup, sow, been, etc.." is enough. Hop-Ga is an entire system, and to simply borrow a couple of hands is not the same as really knowing how to best employ these strikes. You must know correct tactics, otherwise the technique is greatly diminished.
How much do you draw from the techniques, training methods of Hop-Ga in your Hung-Ga teaching and training?

I think that "start big end small" thing is very much Hop-gar, whether it came from it I don't know, but that they share it, yes.
The interception and limb destruction is another thing.

[jdhowland]

TenTigers, I was just about to start a new thread about the crossover in terminology between the Lion's Roar and Hung Ga when I saw this, so I'll throw this question into your topic, instead.

What are the Cantonese terms for basic techniques in the Hung Ga system?

I suspect that much of the terminology for Lama style methods was already in place when it was systematized in the 19th century.

As an example, Hop Ga has:

chyun (piercing)
paau (flinging)
kahp (stamping)
bin (flailing)
chaau (reaping, pulling, gathering)
deng (nailing)
johng (knocking, colliding)
jaau (clawing)
jin (arrow, also called jihk)
chaang jeung (rushing palm)
jin jih (arrow fingers, also called biu)
sou (sweeping)

Kicks include:

daan geuk
paak geuk
tin gong geuk
syuhn fung teui
fuh mei geuk
sou geuk
chat sing teui, etc.,.

Are there more than a few commonalities?

[once ronin]

reverse the position?

How much hung ga did Wong Yan Lum got from his father?

The original Hop in Hop Ga meant a combination of styles.

[lkfmdc]

The original Hop in Hop Ga meant a combination of styles.

NO IT DOES NOT

It means "hero" or "patriot"

俠家

[soulfist]

Wong Yan Lum 王隱林 didnt do Hap Ga 俠家拳, he did Lama 喇嘛派, not the same thing! Wong Yan Lum's disciple Wong Hon Wing 黄漢榮 changed the system and renamed it Hap Ga.

In regards to Hung Ga...

Wong Yan Lum was said to have taught both Wong Kei Ying and Wong Fei Hung.
Wong's teacher Sing Lung 聖龍 was said to have taught Tit Kiu Saam.
So there is that relation.

How much Lama is in Hung Ga?

• Technique-wise some. The "chat sing leen waan keun" section of Tiger Crane is basically Lama techniques. The latter half of Ng Ying Ng Hang (5 animals 5 elements) is full of Lama long arm techniques.
  
• Influence-wise much. Lama is most likely what opened up the short tight postures of "old hung ga". You could argue that it was Tit Sin Keun that was the influence, but in my personal opinion Tit Sin Keun was originally not so stretched out, as is found in the many other similar practices in other southern systems.

Wong Fei Hung made a very intelligent system when he combined old hung ga, lama pai, and tit sin keun. Though the techniques are clear from portion to portion the true union is in the posture and way of motion... in my opinion!

[once ronin]

I wasnt there to hear the dialogue when the changes came about but this is what Harry Ng lineage & Chan Dat Fu explained to me:

Wong Yan Lum had these significant student:

Ng Siu Chung & Ng Siu Chan named there forms White Crane Min Lui Jum

His last disciple Choy Yee Gung Lama Loi Batt Moon

Wong Hon Wing Hop Ga Loy Batt Moon

Prior to these 3 Hop Ga meant a combination not hero.

[lkfmdc]

I
Prior to these 3 Hop Ga meant a combination not hero.

俠

That character does NOT mean "combination"

I have seen TONS of actual documents regarding this

For many years, both Wong Yan-Lam and Wong Lam-Hoi used the Lama Pai name and taught essentially the same system. However, the rapid increase in the size of the system inevitably led to divisions. The system also suffered because it was a foreign method. The Republic period was a time of extreme nationalism and few instructors wanted to claim to be teaching a foreign system, especially one the Qing royal guard had practiced.

For this reason, Wong Yan-Lam's number one disciple, Wong Hon-Wing, adopted the name Haap Ga (Knight Family Style) based upon his teacher's nickname and the recommendation of Dr. Sun Yat-Sen. However, most of Wong Lam-Hoi's students did not accept this new name. They simply refused to give more credit to their Si-Baahk (elder uncle) than to their own teacher. In response, Nhg Siu-Chung established the White Crane style (Baahk Hok Pai).

It has NEVER meant "combination"

[lkfmdc]

Also, there are a LOT of lineags that have nothing to do with Choy Yit Gung or Lo Wai Keung who use "Lama Pai"

don't believe the hype

[soulfist]

I wasnt there to hear the dialogue when the changes came about but this is what Harry Ng lineage & Chan Dat Fu explained to me:

Wong Yan Lum had these significant student:

Ng Siu Chung & Ng Siu Chan named there forms White Crane Min Lui Jum

His last disciple Choy Yee Gung Lama Loi Batt Moon

Wong Hon Wing Hop Ga Loy Batt Moon

Prior to these 3 Hop Ga meant a combination not hero.

No, I dont believe this at all. Who ever told you this got their facts confused.

This 合 is Hap meaning combination
This 俠 is Hap meaning knight

The style NEVER was combination, and furthermore is not a combined style!

Same sound but different characters and different meanings, could only be confused by a westerner (no offense)!


Still, Hap Ga is a branch of Lama Pai, and the name Hap Ga simply didnt come into place until Wong Hon Wing 黄漢榮 started using it!

[once ronin]

Not sure of the hype.

The poems in both versions of Loy batt moon verified the lineage to Wong Yan Lum and their level of learning or how much they paid to learn from Wong Yan Lum.

As for Min Loy Jum their is a difference was there with Ng Siu Chan.

Back to the Hung Ga topic, Wong Ping, Wong Yan Lum father was known as Tit Gerk Tung Yan have a more than solid horse stance.

I would think Hop Ga maybe a softer version of Hung Ga mixed with Lion's Roar.

[jdhowland]

...I would think Hop Ga maybe a softer version of Hung Ga mixed with Lion's Roar.

It might be enough to say that Wong Yan Lum's approach was eclectic. He had no problem sharing and learning from friends. No one can say what he learned from Wong Ping. But he kept the lama footwork and basic hands.

My estimation is that he was quite conservative in teaching the complete lama fists curriculum, regardless of what he added.

jd

[lkfmdc]

Not sure of the hype.

The "hype" is that Lama Pai comes through Choy Yit Gung's lineage, it does NOT. It is what they were all calling it before the "split"

[lkfmdc]

No, I dont believe this at all. Who ever told you this got their facts confused.

This 合 is Hap meaning combination
This 俠 is Hap meaning knight

The style NEVER was combination, and furthermore is not a combined style!

Same sound but different characters and different meanings, could only be confused by a westerner (no offense)!

THIS!

Please note the characters, note that they don't mean the same thing

[soulfist]

I would think Hop Ga maybe a softer version of Hung Ga mixed with Lion's Roar.

What does that mean? I thought we determined that Hap Ga has nothing to do with Hung Ga, you are trying to say that Lama is Hap Ga but it isnt.

It might be enough to say that Wong Yan Lum's approach was eclectic. He had no problem sharing and learning from friends. No one can say what he learned from Wong Ping. But he kept the lama footwork and basic hands.

Wong Yan Lum's father was Wong Ping? I thought he learned Lama from Sing Lung... What did he learn from his father?