Tru-2-Form Sparring

[lkfmdc]

Flying through the air like an effin monkey gets you disqualified however.

I think "Flying through the air like an effin monkey" is the least of the concerns here

[-N-]

Here's a preview of next year's weapons sparring division.



You don't need a real weapon or a real opponent. You just pretend to win after your pretend fight.

[SPJ]

true 2 form

agreed.

but how about also

tru-2-function sparring

and no TM(trademark) there

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[MightyB]

BTW - the tru-2-form sparring looked 'tarded.

[MightyB]

I don't think it makes sense to go backward. It's like to ask a Judo master to compete in Taiji push hands thournament. How much can he get out of it?

- honor?
- experience?

I believe the answer is "neither".

Not a master, but I'd like to have the experience. Not the pu$$ified version that you see in American tournaments, but the Push Wrastl'n stuff from those old Chen village competitions.

[SPJ]

After you have knocked your opponent down, you will have all the time in the word to perform your "white crane flap wings" to prove that you are a Taiji master, or "walk in circle" to prove that you are a Bagua master.

agreed. there is the reason why all fights look like kickboxing

since functionally, they are the same across all styles.

so the idea of fighting like your forms is like perpetualling a grossly misguided idea or false belief or a lie---

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[Yum Cha]

back when everyone actually WAS fighting, there was not as much variation, not as many "flowery" technique and not as much talk about chi and secrets

this isn't a theory, it is historically verifiable

in the 1920's, 1930's and then again in the 1950's when the army needed to find what actually worked, they always came back to what we know today as sanshou/san da

In the 1990's when there was an active fighting circuit in sanshou, you have 7 or 8 different teams, all different backgrounds and coaches, yet so many similarities

IE there is only what works and what doesn't

stuff like tru-2-form always says "why doesn't fighting look THIS way" and the answer is because fighting never looks that way

Ok, I got some input here, yea, no. Back in the day when we had tournaments with 'San Da' rules, we had cup, mouthguard and 8oz gloves. No vest, no shinguards, headgear optional.

Sometimes it was a messy brawl, but lots of time you got good style and technique with full contact. Saw a Pak Hok lightweight once rip a guy up by running in a star pattern around the guy, hitting him once or twice in each pass, and not copping a lick.

Good short arm vs long arm fights. And different kinds of fighters too, guys that weren't anything more than club blokes 'representing' on the day, on through to full on fight only guys.

Some kickboxing, some Chinese Boxing, some kickers, mostly boxers... Choi Lee Fut and Yau Kung Mun had the biggest silver cabinets, Pak Hok, Double Dragon, and some smaller schools had standout fighers here and there. These were full pedigree TCMA.

Choi Lee Fut (Chen yong fa) was the first to go full on into San Da training, they had a major rivalry with Yau Kung Mun, it was heavy. Yau Kung Mun had a couple of perennial champions that just couldn't be beaten over a 10 year period in the mid 70-80s. Including the heavyweight....<grin>.

No, San Da is not the be all and end all, ultimate realisation unless its the only game in town. Hell, its half 'mech warrior'.

Why can't the tru-2-form fighting use San Da rules, just add the points as per the new rules? F**king-ay, you got no right getting out there it you're not prepared to catch one in the cake hole... IMHO....

In its defense, it did look like beginners doing point sparring, but it is a new format, and everybody looked tentative. There was a lot of room left to mix it up without eye gougin and arm breakin'....

[SanShou Guru]

Since I have been doing what should be considered “real” San Shou longer then anyone else on this forum I guess I’ll weigh in again. I trained with Jason Yee when he won the Bronze in San Shou in 1991 at the first World Championships in Beijing. Jason Yee who is far and away the best athlete to compete and win titles in both forms and fighting. Jason would say forms are forms, fighting is fighting. There was little crossover beyond the rawest principles. When Jason taught forms classes he would explain the use of the technique so we knew what to picture when we did the move but it would not really work in the ring if your opponent was even remotely competent.

We had to suffer through the Tru-2-form fighters in the San Shou ranks. We called them Kung-Fu daddies. I have fought Wing Chug, Bagua, drunken something, etc. It drove us nuts and they ALWAYS lost. The Bagua guy started his circle up until I hit him. Then he tried to use Push hands and I put him in Shawn Lui’s lap over the judge’s table. At the same tournament I still remember Rudi Ott pacing back and forth after the first round of a Kung-Fu daddy fight complaining about how bad the guys was and how hard he had trained to fight someone like this was insulting. They were even worse then whom we called the “Bob from Denver”s. Random guys who were mostly self-trained, deep on theory and slim on experience.

I trained and competed in Hsing-I and used the principles in the ring with great success but not the form of the technique. That would get me killed. What drives Ross and the modern coaches crazy is that people who really don’t know Sheit about fighting try to stick to the form exactly. That is B.S. of the highest order. They think that if they saw warriors from historical China fighting it would look like a Jet Li movie. It wouldn’t. If they were trained it would look more like Braveheart, hack, smash, kill, trip, fall, stumble, etc. I can’t do my techniques with gloves on, B.S.. I catch and throw people all the time with gloves on. Gloves are used in the UFC not to protect the person getting hit but to protect your hands. If you punch with real (boxer level) power against a real head without at least raps you will break your hand. If I had to really fight someone I would want 6 oz. MMA gloves and a good wrap job. It may hamper my Mantis grab but I can knock your teeth out like Chiclets spilled in a movie theater while you are half way through your Pat the Wild Horses Main throw attempt.

As the oldest and most successful San Shou program in the US I can tell you we beg borrow and steal anything that works in a fight. We also train our fighters to fight the way they are built to fight. Mantis may work for an athletic lean flexible person and not for a 240lbs construction worker with no flexibility.

I am a better fighter then you are not because Hsing-I is better then Bagua but because I trained with a fantastic coach that adapted our style to what worked in REAL fights. I’m a better fighter then you because my theories about fighting came from experience not a book, dvd, or play fighting with friends in my back yard. I am a better fighter then you because I have sparred more then 10,000 rounds over 20 years against very good fighters and learned every time.

Real-to-form fighting is as insulting to me as if I watched you do your best form and then spent a day teaching it to a homeless guys and put a video of him on YouTube and pass him off as a master of your style.

[SanShou Guru]

If you think REAL San Shou is just kick boxing and you can't do you techniques with gloves on then watch this and judge.

[MightyB]

You know - when one takes stock of their lives - they think about how things may have been done differently. When I talk to kids about MA, I first try to find out what their true interests are - if they want to fight, I push boxing, wrestling, and Judo (I figure they can learn the kicks later on their own, plus good boxing, wrestling, and Judo is available pretty much anywhere and it's surprisingly affordable). To me, a perfect mix is boxing and Judo and it's what I'd do if I could do it all over again. I'd add a CMA later in life.

I don't dispute anything that you guys are saying (Dave and SanShou), and if you read my thread/post history - I say and advocate pretty much everything you say because I was a kung fu daddy in a san shou ring and learned to adapt pretty fast to today's reality after that great experience.

That being said - I'm not going to trash anybody that's attempting anything to inspire sparring in the TCMA world. A) TCMA needs sparring B) TCMA stylists hate to spar so this Tru2 stuff might get them at least doing something C) Light-contact continuous if done consistently will at least get them to learn better timing, rhythm and distance D) Sparring consistently inspires some to want to learn to fight because they're starting to get acclimated to the idea E) We might get more fighters in TCMA because some will want to fight. Seriously - the most difficult thing in TCMA in smaller communities is finding sparring partners - no one wants to spar!

[MasterKiller]

Daaayuum, SanShou Guru just laid down knowledge on you suckas.

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha, do you on purupose avoid certain statements? I mean, all you can harp about is "sanshou" but we've already mentioned kuoshu lei tai (finger less gloves) and MMA (fingerless gloves) neither had chest shields

San Da in the US has NEVER had chest shields

Ok, I got some input here, yea, no. Back in the day when we had tournaments with 'San Da' rules, we had cup, mouthguard and 8oz gloves. No vest, no shinguards, headgear optional.

It seems all you can harp on, and this is not the first time, is equipment

I already said we mentioned formats with little to no gear

Additionally, do you really think if I too MY GUYS and put them with the tru-2-form guys and we fought full contact that gear or no gear would make a difference? REALLY ?

Sometimes it was a messy brawl, but lots of time you got good style and technique with full contact. Saw a Pak Hok lightweight once rip a guy up by running in a star pattern around the guy, hitting him once or twice in each pass, and not copping a lick.

sure you can see technique in a full contact fight. But to get there you have to train to fight, not train to dance around each other with no contact like a bad kung fu movie

Did you ever see the fantasy-fu that was being propogated by this tru-2-form stuff? Come on , be honest

No, San Da is not the be all and end all, ultimate realisation unless its the only game in town. Hell, its half 'mech warrior'.

here you go again with your one track obession.

Also, you really need to actually watch some san da, it is NOT covered in padding.

But it does appear you never bother with the "details"

Why can't the tru-2-form fighting use San Da rules, just add the points as per the new rules? F**king-ay, you got no right getting out there it you're not prepared to catch one in the cake hole... IMHO....

If it was full contact, it would look NOTHING like this. And if it was full contact 100% of the participants in this would leave, that's the point

[lkfmdc]

We had to suffer through the Tru-2-form fighters in the San Shou ranks. We called them Kung-Fu daddies. I have fought Wing Chug, Bagua, drunken something, etc. It drove us nuts and they ALWAYS lost. The Bagua guy started his circle up until I hit him.

I had a guy contact me to fight in one of the NY events. He was the self professed "bare knuckle lei tai champion of South America". He said he had 50 something fights. He wanted to fight Al Loraux (sp?) from Boston - I think now only Sanshou Guru knows how funny that sounds

I had my doubts so instead of feeding him to Al (as a light snack) we put the bare knuckle champion of south america against a guy with 6 months san shou training

The bare knuckle champion of south america showed up and fought in a full kung fu uniform, he ba gua walked at the beginning of the first round, then the fight began and he got knocked out about a minute later

He said "I don't understand" but we did

What drives Ross and the modern coaches crazy is that people who really don’t know Sheit about fighting try to stick to the form exactly. That is B.S. of the highest order. They think that if they saw warriors from historical China fighting it would look like a Jet Li movie. It wouldn’t.

I'd clarify this point. What TCMA is REALLY composed of is basic kicks, punches, sweeps, knees and elbows. ALL of which you can use in a full contact fight

The "kung fu daddies" are always looking for some fancy palm, or claw or spin move, or death touch

A lot of the moves that they try to make into "striking" are really wrestling and clinching, they simply have no clue how to use them

"I can’t do my techniques with gloves on, B.S".. I catch and throw people all the time with gloves on.

Watch any high level san shou or san da and you see plenty of catches and throws

and AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN if you really think the gloves are the issue do lei tai or even better MMA

[lkfmdc]

if you think real san shou is just kick boxing and you can't do you techniques with gloves on then watch this and judge.

word +10000000

[yutyeesam]

3 Things on my mind in regards to Tru 2 Form.

1. I can see that it will produce a lot of egos. Unwarranted egos for LARPing is sort of the last thing the CMA world needs right now.

2. Nobody can dispute that there is a ripe and ready market for fantasy fighting. So, this will work if the business is done right, but when it comes to the CMA, business is many times not done right. While I'm not sure how this will play out, I'm not terribly worried about this becoming a sensation.

3. I do see the need to have a venue for people who may not be ready for continuous sparring or san da. Many CMA schools have cardio kickboxing programs, or an intense forms regimen, and often times, it can be hard to convince those folks to spar, despite your best efforts.

So to that end, I recognize the need of something as a primer to prepare people to mix hands. But without hard contact and intent, it's dishonest. To address this real issue of getting more people to exchange hands, I'd suggest a drill called "1 for 1" - you give an attack and they defend, then they give an attack and you defend. Do it with full power intent, contact, to all gates on the body, etc. (it's essentially a common stick drill in Escrima, some call it "Free Flow"). But that's just an idea to try to get people used to the idea of contact that still has an element of randomness to it, without completely getting scared off by san shou (or even continuous sparring for that matter).