San Soo and five families

[mig]

It looks he gives a general definition in this youtube clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ17G...eature=related

doesn't seem that is related to choy lee fut (cailifo)

[Mulong]

Here is a glimpse of Woo Shifu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wu9W...eature=related

[lkfmdc]

Here is a glimpse of Woo Shifu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wu9W...eature=related

does that look like Choy Lay Fut to you?

[Grasshopper101]

So I've read a ton of threads on various forums, and talked in person with a couple of San Soo black belts that trained directly under Jimmy Woo in the 60's and 70's. This is what I have gleaned so far:

The Jimmy Woo (James Wing Woo) of Kempo & Ed Parker fame is NOT the same Jimmy Woo of San Soo. Period.

Jimmy Woo (San Soo) and Ark Wong both knew Ed Parker, and Ed came to both of them to try to add more "kung-fu" to his Japanese karate style he was still adding to. From what I've been told, he spent much more time with Ark Wong, they (Jimmy or Ark) certainly never learned anything from Ed Parker.

Jimmy Woo origionally called his style Karate, and then Karate-Kung fu due to the percieved popularity of the Japanese martial arts back then, and since he was catering to non-Chinese students, named his style to attract the most amount of students. Supposedly, he later regreted doing that and wished he had simply called it Kung-Fu all along. He opened his school a few years before Ark Wong did, and nobody knew what Kung-Fu was until Ark opened the first named Kung-Fu school.

There is a direct lineage to CLF in the San Soo tree due to the whole five famillies thing, but in my inexpert opinion, that doesn't necessarily mean that San Soo is CLF, or that there is much if any CLF in the style per se.

What I want to know is since San Soo and Ark Wongs five families appear to be the same, are they in fact the same? Is there some sort of cross pollination, or simply a common ancestor(s) - but the arts evolved over time into completely different styles?

I can't help but draw parallels between Jimmy and Ark, as they both trained for approximately the same amount of years in China, and emmigrated to the U.S. at about the same ages (just different years, as Ark was older). In the big scheme of things, I wonder how much knowledge they really had obtained in that relatively short amount of time - I say short because I sort of envision a "master" having trained for umpteen years and maybe after 30-40 years of continous training, are "masters" of the art. But what do I know? I can't say that they didn't learn their entire respective styles in full before coming over here at age 21 or so.

[hskwarrior]

From 1920's until the 1980's the only known choy lee fut master in america was Lau Bun. Ed Parker picked up CLF stuff from Lau Bun's people which can be verified through their lineage. Refer to their form #4. Ed parker used to spend time with Lau Bun who used to sell him Dit Da Jow for 500 dollars a gallon.

and based on what jimmy was saying, i believe he is saying its not CLF.

[Mulong]

David I know that, but within my private collection I have a Jimmy H. Woo demonstrating a set which has resemblance to cailifoquan.

Hskwarrior, question did James Wing Woo, actually learned with Lau Shifu?

[Mulong]

Let’s try to clarify this:

First is Jimmy H. Woo and second is James Wing Woo; hence, two different individuals.

[Dale Dugas]

does that look like Choy Lay Fut to you?

Looks like most of the American Kenpo/Kempo based systems/material you see now.

No CLF in any of those movements that I saw.

And this does not mean that Woo was not a good fighter etc. The man seemed capable of using his material.

[hskwarrior]

Hskwarrior, question did James Wing Woo, actually learned with Lau Shifu?

Hard to say. Lau sifu influenced many people back then. Even the kajukenbo people have been influenced by Lau Sifu. yet, there are rumors that Jimmy was friends with Lau Sifu, and stories of them debt collecting together. still hard to confirm.

[lkfmdc]

Looks like most of the American Kenpo/Kempo based systems/material you see now.

No CLF in any of those movements that I saw.

And this does not mean that Woo was not a good fighter etc. The man seemed capable of using his material.

Ah, Dale got IT! Thanks Dale

And AGAIN, I know the difference between Wing Woo and Jimmy Woo of San Soo (wow, that is like rap LOL)

The San Soo guy was ALSO associated with Parker

[Grasshopper101]

As I mentioned before, Ed Parker did hang around with Jimmy for a while, but he visited a lot of studios and absorbed parts from many sources.

Ditto for Bruce Lee. Bruce went to both Jimmy and Ark and wanted to learn from them, but from what I heard Jimmy wanted Bruce to start out as a white belt and Bruce walked.

Since we all know that Jimmy and his style pre-dated anything Ed Parker was working on, to me the San Soo/Kenpo connection is one directional. Ed learned karate, and then picked up a bunch of kung fu from various people and added it to his art. Maybe he tried to emmulate San Soo in his approach to techniques and punching and kicking combinations? That may be so, as traditional karate tended to focus on only a couple of powerful strikes in it's techniques and looks nothing like the techniques of Kenpo except for the kicks and some of the hand strikes.

Back to my original question - how does the five families being listed for both Woo's and Wong's styles play out, and are the arts at all connected?

[SIFU RON]

Your questions ( which date back to 10/25/2010 ) are old news to us here on the forum.

I have a question for you Grasshopper 101

who are you ?

what is your contact information other than this froum ?

thank you

Ron Shewmaker

[Mulong]

The only correlation is that all were practicing what I like to refer to as pre-twentieth century Southern style which weren’t influenced by development of the Jingwu or Goushou.

Also, the use of square horse stance was the nucleus of their respective styles.

It is interesting, how Art Wong, Lau Bun, and Wong Tim Yuen influenced so many individuals directly or indirectly.

[bawang]

[FONT="Georgia"]The only correlation is that all were practicing what I like to refer to as pre-twentieth century Southern style which weren’t influenced by development of the Jingwu or Goushou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duamnzfKI3E

3:10 this is old southern style.

san soo looks obviously made up

[Grasshopper101]

I think I may have answered my own questions with more use of the search feature - I ran across these posts which I'm going to copy and paste:

KUNGFU SAN SOO IS A CHINESE MARTIAL ART.

The man who brought it to the United States was known as Jimmy Haw Woo. His name in China was Chan Siu Dek or Chan Sau Zeok (depending on how you want to write Cantonese.)

The art is related to Choy Li Fut.

Jimmy had a number of teachers as a boy growing up in Toisan China. His Uncle Chan Siu Hung oversaw his instruction.

Chan Siu Hung was an adoptive son or stepson of Chan Heung. He learned Choy Li Fut from Chan Heung and Chan Koon Pak. Later he moved to Toisan and opened a Dit Da Medical Clinic and Martial Arts School.

To the best of my knoweledge I say the art is related to Choy Li Fut because, in addition to Choy Li Fut, Jimmy learned what many San Soo practioners call the 5 Family System. This is the same system the venerable master Ark Yuey Wong learned from Abbot Pang at the Guandong Branch of the Shaolin temple. This was the same style taught at the local Toisan temple dedicated to Guan Yin until the Japanese occupation during WWII.

Tsoi or Choy
Li
Ho or Hoi or Mok
Fut or Fat
Hung

Jimmy called what he taught "Karate-Kungfu" for marketing reasons. Very few Americans knew what Kungfu was but they knew what Karate was. Later on he started calling it Kungfu San Soo. He called it San Soo, because he focused on practical fighting and principles of fighting. San Soo does not have a lot of flashy moves but it very effective. Our students usually will not participate in tournaments of any sort because we fight very dirty. My experience with San Soo is that it has less to do with fighting and more to do with conflict resolution. That is to say, why waste time trying to fight someone when you can just finish the confrontation with some strategic thinking and effective economic technique.

The man who faught Jon Marsh was a San Soo Master but he was not very experienced with ring fighting. Jon Marsh is a professional fighter and he did a very good job that day. My respects to both Jon Marsh and Scott. At least they both got into the ring and faced eachother.

Salute,
Eric Thomson
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There are many people that will say that San Soo is not affiliated in any way with Choi Li Fut. However, those same people will insist that Chan Siu Hung was Jimmy Woo’s main teacher. In any event, Chan Siu Hung was a well-known person in the Toisan area. Chan Heung and Chan On Pak, his teachers, had such high regard for him as a disciple of Choi Li Fut that Chan Yiu Chi, Chan Heung’s Grandson, devoted all of Chapter 46 in his book The History of Choy Li Fut to Chan Siu Hung. The book is still in manuscript form and is held by the Chan Family Martial Arts Association (i.e. Chan Yong Fa the Great Grandson of Chan Heung, the Jung Merng of Hung Sing Gwoon and Wing Sing Tong.)

http://clfma.com/modules.php?op=modl...158&forum=1&10

Those Masters of San Soo who do not want to accept this information are those that have foreclosed on a particular version of reality and cannot stand to be presented with any new information. For them, maintaining that San Soo is a unique art that Jimmy only taught to them and that it’s now dead in China is a matter of faith and ego. There are some San Soo Masters that do believe that San Soo and Choi Li Fut are related. One notable 1st Generation Master is Tom Akers.

http://groups.msn.com/ChinSiuDekHing...pgmarket=en-us

http://www.sansoosifuakers.com/about.html

Jimmy Woo was never very forthcoming about his past. Sometimes he intentionally mislead people and changed the subject when asked about his past. If I am to take at face value what my instructors tell me, Jimmy said that San Soo and Choi Li Fut were not the same but related. This is because Jimmy’s other teachers (his grandfather and uncles.) taught him the Five Family system. This is similar to how the late Ark Yuey Wong was trained, Ark Wong learned in the Monastery in Guangzhou and Jimmy learned in Pang Tang Village Toisan. According to 1st Generation Master Ron Gatewood, publisher of the San Soo Journal and author of Kung Fu San Soo: The Secret Art of Fighting Monks, Ark Wong and Jimmy Woo were related. They were probably cousins. Jimmy often would go up to L.A.’s Chinatown to visit with Ark Wong whom he referred to endearingly as Cousin Wong or Old Wong. See Ark Yuey Wong’s lineage on this page:

http://www.dokungfu.com/tkaa/templestyle.html

Now regarding whether San Soo exists in China. San Soo was a name that Jimmy used to describe what it was he was teaching us. To him San Soo meant The Practical Art of Fighting. Try to think of the words San Soo as a marketing tool. This way you won’t get fouled up in the semantics of “well SAN SOO doesn’t exist in China.” Because San Soo or more correctly 5 Family Fists and Choy Li Fut still exist in China today. It is true that a great number of Chan Siu Hung’s students and family members were gunned down by the Japanese, but Chan Siu Hung’s son Chan Sai Mo (or Chen Shi Wu – mandarin) is still alive. He taught a number of people the small circle style of Choy Li Fut. He even has a disciple in Toronto Canada. Master Paul Chan of the Hong Luck Kungfu Club.

http://www.hongluck.org/clf_origins.htm

Regarding documentation of the art. Jimmy had some manuscripts from China. These are proverbial Holy Grail to most San Soo practitioners. Many of the first generation masters have seen Jimmy pouring over the books before and after practice. They are believed to be Martial Art and Medicinal Manuals produced at Kwan Yin Monastery during the Ming Dynasty. Unfortunately, the books disappeared after Jimmy’s death. So just about anybody can say anything they like about the books. For that matter they can say Jimmy told me this and Jimmy told me that, because he died in 1991. The truth is that we will never really know. But if you are still not sure that San Soo is a Chinese, think about this: Jimmy was Chinese raised in China, he learned Martial Arts from his family members who were Chinese and learned their art from other Chinese people. That’s good enough for me. If that’s still not good enough for you, you can come and check out one of our classes.

Monday and Wednesday nights (this Summer) 7 – 10pm at Saddleback College room# PE 306. 28000 Marguerite Pkwy., Mission Viejo, CA 92692

If you have had experience with Chinese Martial Arts you will be able to see that our techniques are similar to many Southern Styles.


Merryprankster,

I assume that you are saying that I think sparring is too hard. To the contrary, I like sparring. I’ve done a lot of sparring and I believe it is good experience. Anybody who knows me will tell you that.

Wushu Chik,

Any San Soo master can say what they want about our style being deadly etc. I will say it’s true. Our art is very formidable. However, it’s only as good as it’s practitioners. I think it is possible for a person to be a great street fighter and be poor at sparring. There is a story about a tournament Jimmy Woo participated in back in San Francisco in 1965. He was disqualified for kneeing a guy in the groin. This is typical of the way we fight. Lots of stomps on the knees, takedowns, Chin Na, finishes etc. I believe that if a San Soo person really wanted to dedicate themselves to learning how to spar and trained hard etc they could be a great fighter. In fact one of 7th Degree Black Belt, Lee Shadowbear did quite well in NHB competitions a few years ago. The problem is that if they are participating in martial sport like sparring we, the San Soo Community, don’t really consider that as doing San Soo.

As far as never really being documented is concerned, that’s a pretty safe pot shot to take because you know that many records and documents have been lost in China over the last 100 years because of the terrible state of upheaval the country was in before, during and after WWII.

Respectfully,
Eric Thomson