lkfmdc,
I was going to say the same thing, but I myself don't have much boxing experiance.
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lkfmdc,
I was going to say the same thing, but I myself don't have much boxing experiance.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
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Time for a quick p.s.---
Anybody who's been around Western boxing much at all, especially from a training standpoint, who has a lick of sense & insight usually figures out pretty fast that probably at least 90% (conservative number there) of people who get into boxing really never learn how to use the legs to generate more power for their punches; all arm and shoulder.you don't know much about western boxing, do you
Same holds true for all kinds of other Western sports: few baseball players other than pitchers throw very effectively from the legs (you see this a lot in athletes who try to throw the javelin; all arm & shoulder, not many who throw WITH the legs), most use all arm to wing a football, etc.
Even more so are *most* (and 90% would be low) people who get into the martial arts. Almost all of them never learn to punch from the legs effectively, or how to coordinate their upper & lower body while maneuvering as they maintain the principles of attack and defense that their forms are designed around; except sometimes when they're doing some kind of drill, in the gym or dojo or wherever, and *outside* of a real fighting situation where the opponent is honestly trying to hurt them.
They start fighting and immediately go into sport mode. The forms work, etc, becoming practically nonexistent & next to completely meaningless. Especially the longer the fight goes on (remember, the old Chinese used a half-second model!); just watch them---you will see what I mean. Especially if you have a chance to look at Green Dragon's '3 techniques from 12 styles' tape: that's pretty close to what Chinese fighting is supposed to look like...like it or not.
So I'm not surprised that the real basis for the analogy went right over lkf's head; he obviously doesn't know much at all about Western boxing from the standpoint of the typical boxer.
This is the reaction of the typical mainstream kung fu guy. What is obvious is that he really has no idea at all what he is seeing: no understanding of the half-second paradigm (which involves a number of strategic & tactical objectives the fighter is required to carry out in a half-second or less; good senior students get more of them done faster, but 1/2 sec. is the max to be in the Chinese paradigm. Ong was amazing at this, Chang quite simply mind-blowing in what he could do) and how it relates to true Chinese fighting & principles; no understanding whatsoever of true Chinese maneuvering and how it is supposed to occur; no grasp of what is going on from a power-delivery standpoint at all.The seniors are the ones doing the tapes, they are some of the most disjointed, unconnected "All Arms" *Performers* I have ever seen. ..If they got actual corrections in thier form, structure, and mechanics, the *Seniors* who are demonstraiting on these tapes would show it..and they clearly don't
Just go to any tournament and see: no matter how these guys claim they train, when they get into a fight, it's 99.9% sport-style techniques, Western boxing or wrestling (or karate) maneuvering, etc.
The very few exceptions of guys who've done okay fighting are people who do it with no Chinese (I don't mean the mainstream approach that they don't know is incorrect because they've usually never seen it correctly done) techniques to really speak of and, regardless, would've been pretty good fighters no matter what kind of school they came through; ie it isn't really the kung fu---the forms work, the power programs, the maneuvering drills, etc---that is the cause of the success in any meaningful way at all.
One of the many, many things I appreciated about Green Dragon was that as we were taught how to do things from the classical Chinese standpoint, they also always taught how other schools did things--and WHY (or why not)--so we could understand the sometimes severe limitations in many of those (sport style, or, a lot of times, artsy-****sy) approaches; not just theoretically or in a dismissive, belittling way, but from a solid practical side in terms of health or, especially---they are the martial arts, afterall---combat applications & fighting; ie consequences.
One final side note (that I keep forgetting to add): when you're doing a real internal Chinese power program (building chi for use in health & fighting) the way you're supposed to, there is a lot going on inside you that you might not be able to feel or perceive for quite awhile---depends how hard you're working, how much time per day, # of reps, etc---especially when you're doing something that's mostly external in its design, or, even when you're doing something that's 100% internal! But it is going on! Some people get discouraged and give up WAY too soon, like with the Snake Turns Over they never even really get halfway through the program (which is sometime in the 70s in terms of reps) and stop. You gotta hang in there and work 'em!
Wrong. Although some strength gains happen more quickly using weights. But, as I've already said before (and people like RD ignore because they have no real experience with Chinese power training at all, as the Chinese used to actually do it), in the long run things like Stone Warrior take you FAR past anyplace weights would have, especially from a CMA perspective.You get better "Monster" strength results with only 20-30 minutes of work, 3 X a week...
Because they really will build up & circulate the chi for use in fighting & health; if you do them the way you are supposed to.
Don't cheat on the tension or skip days or stop just because your hands are cramping or are fatigued to the point you can't make a fist 100% right (though you do your best to maintain proper form at all times) or let yourself ride up too high in your stance, like most Western approaches to exercise teach you. The common Western approach to things like these just won't work at all for some of these things, particularly the better things.
I really hope you get that chance, King; I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised once he sees you're humble, sincere, and respectful. The man knows his stuff, and he's had a major, and positive, impact on a lot of peoples' lives that goes far beyond just the Chinese martial arts training.I have never had the opportunity to meet Sifu Allen. I hope someday to have that opportunity
Gotta go, have fun, but work hard, in your training, guys.
Last edited by iron tiger; 01-18-2007 at 05:14 PM. Reason: grammar healing...takes time sometimes.
Troll Slayer
Originally Posted by iron tiger
Let me correct what I wrote, you know NOTHING about western boxing
Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253
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Not even worth a response anymore.Let me correct what I wrote, you know NOTHING about western boxing
The good news is, a few other people are starting to figure out that lkf & RD don't really have much at all of any substance to say.
So thanks, lkf, it's appreciated!
Troll Slayer
Dude, I'll be blunt, you come off as the guy who has only trained kung fu in one school and simply spouts the crap his one teacher told him
It's correct, there is no point responding to you, the content of your posts demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about.
Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253
Registered User
I just noticed that Iron Tiger writes exactly the way Allen talks on the Tai Tzu tapes I have.........
Anybody who's been around Western boxing much at all, especially from a training standpoint, who has a lick of sense & insight usually figures out pretty fast that probably at least 90% (conservative number there) of people who get into boxing really never learn how to use the legs to generate more power for their punches; all arm and shoulder.
Reply]
You know, I may not have much boxing experiance myself, but comming from Chicago, I HAVE crossed hands with boxers before. I never met one that was only hsoulders. Boxers have full body mechancis and power generation. You are reveling your ignorance wiht the above comments.
>>Same holds true for all kinds of other Western sports: few baseball players other than pitchers throw very effectively from the legs (you see this a lot in athletes who try to throw the javelin; all arm & shoulder, not many who throw WITH the legs), most use all arm to wing a football, etc.
Even more so are *most* (and 90% would be low) people who get into the martial arts. Almost all of them never learn to punch from the legs, except sometimes when they're doing some kind of drill, in the gym or dojo or wherever, and *outside* of a real fighting situation where the opponent is trying to hurt them.
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You don't get out of your Green Dragon cave much do you?
>>They start fighting and immediately go into sport mode. The forms work, etc, becoming practically nonexistent & next to completely meaningless.
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Hmm, maybe I have seen much better Kung Fu than you?
So I'm not surprised that the real basis for the analogy went right over lkf's head; he obviously doesn't know much at all about Western boxing from the standpoint of the typical boxer.
Reply]
Quote:
The seniors are the ones doing the tapes, they are some of the most disjointed, unconnected "All Arms" *Performers* I have ever seen. ..If they got actual corrections in thier form, structure, and mechanics, the *Seniors* who are demonstraiting on these tapes would show it..and they clearly don't
This is the reaction of the typical mainstream kung fu guy.
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No, this is the reaction of someone who has been in the martial arts since 1989, and has seen some really darn good Kung Fu.
What is obvious is that he really has no idea at all what he is seeing:
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You got that right....I don't know what that cluster Fuck of a demo was that I saw on the Green Dragon tapes. No sense of proper body structure, or alignment. I mean, it made me cringe watching it. It was the worst Tai Tzu I have ever seen...and ditto for the GD links posted in this thread.
no understanding of the half-second paradigm (which involves a number of strategic & tactical objectives the fighter is required to carry out in a half-second or less; good senior students get more of them done faster, but 1/2 sec. is the max to be in the Chinese paradigm. Ong was amazing at this, Chang quite simply mind-blowing in what he could do) and how it relates to true Chinese fighting & principles; no understanding whatsoever of true Chinese maneuvering and how it is supposed to occur; no grasp of what is going on from a power-delivery standpoint at all.
Reply]
Allen, if you had even a half baked idea of what you are talking about, you would easily be able to see from the horrible skelital alignment of your students, that you don't know anything about Chinese power generation yourself, and thearfore have not imparted it to them.
Just go to any tournament and see: no matter how these guys claim they train, when they get into a fight, it's 99.9% sport-style techniques, Western (or karate) maneuvering, etc.
Reply]
I have not really noticed that myself. So far Kung Fu guys move, and fight like Kung Fu guys. In Chicago we have a generation of gus who all came from a Karate background, and THEY fight like you described, but everyone else fights pretty much how they train.
The very few exceptions of guys who've done okay fighting are people who do it with no Chinese (I don't mean the mainstream approach that they don't know is incorrect because they've usually never seen it correctly done) techniques to really speak of and, regardless, would've been pretty good fighters no matter what kind of school they came through; ie it isn't really the kung fu---the forms work, the power programs, the maneuvering drills, etc---that is the cause of the success hardly at all.
Reply]
You know, you can watch San Shou/Sanda and Kuo Shou and see plenty of real Chinese Kung Fu in action. I don't know where you have been hideing, but I think it's time you step out of the 1970's Karate trounaments you seem to be stuck in,and see how much really good Kung Fu has made it's way to the US in the last 30 years.
One of the many, many things I appreciated about Green Dragon was that as we were taught how to do things from the classical Chinese standpoint,
Reply]
If that is so, why do your student arch thier backs so much? Why do they expand thier chests, and pull back ther shoulders? Why do they stick thier butts out so much? I mean, its not that they just fail the proper *Classical Chinese* requirements, they actually go as far as they can in the OPPOSITE direction. How can you expect anyone to buy the load you are shoveling when the vids of your students, with every structural flaw and violation of correct Chinese principals there is, are right there for everyone to see?
they also always taught how other schools did things so we could understand the limitations in many of those approaches; not just theoretically or in a dismissive, derisive way, but from a practical side in terms of health or, especially---they are the martial arts, afterall---combat applications & fighting.
Reply]
Something tells me you were not taught how other schools did anything....
One final note that I keep forgetting to add: when you're doing a real internal Chinese power program (building chi for use in health & fighting) the way you're supposed to, there is a lot going on inside you that you might not be able to feel for quite awhile---depends how hard you're working, how much time per day, etc---especially when you're doing something that's mostly external in its design. But it is going on! Some people get discouraged and give up WAY too soon, like with the Snake Turns Over they never even really get halfway through the program (which is sometime in the 70s in terms of reps) and stop. You gotta hang in there and work 'em!
Reply]
Like I have said, I have done dynamic tension set before, for quite a long time....your *Stone Warrior* is nothing special. It's the same as SanZhen in it's effects on the body.
Quote:
You get better "Monster" strength results with only 20-30 minutes of work, 3 X a week...
Wrong. Although some strength gains happen more quickly using weights. But, as I've already said before (and people like RD ignore because they have no real experience with Chinese power training at all, as the Chinese used to actually do it), in the long run things like Stone Warrior take you FAR past anyplace weights would have, especially from a CMA perspective.
Reply]
Sorry dude, you are wrong...
Because they really will build up & circulate the chi for use in fighting & health.
Reply]
So does anything you do that builds muscles, and cardio...
Don't cheat on the tension or skip days or stop just because your hands are cramping or are fatigued to the point you can't make a fist 100% right (though you do your best to maintain proper form at all times) or let yourself ride up too high in your stance, like most Western approaches to exercise teach you. The common Western approach to things like these just won't work at all for some of these things, particularly the better things.
Reply]
We are not talking *Western* Approaches here, we are talking Chinese. The CORE of Chinese Kung Fu is in the body mechancis. Strength of those mechanics is important too, but the essence is the mechanics themselves.
The mechancis of *Chinese* martial arts is based on a certian structure of skelital alignment, which is not only totaly lacking in the SENIORS of Green Dragon, it is readily apparent that they worked very hard to develop themselves in the OOPOSITE direction, to the point where every possible flaw one could fine is magnifed to a great degree (Backs arched, chest out, shoulder back, butt out - all WRONG for Chinese Kung Fu)
Quote:
I have never had the opportunity to meet Sifu Allen. I hope someday to have that opportunity
I really hope you get that chance, King; I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised once he sees you're humble, sincere, and respectful. The man knows his stuff, and he's had a major, and positive, impact on a lot of peoples' lives that goes far beyond just the Chinese martial arts training.
Gotta go, have fun, but work hard, in your training, guys.
Reply]
Umm Ok Allen.....
Oh, just a note, if you are gong to pretend you are someone besides yourself, to prop yourself up, try writing in a style that ISN'T exactly like you talk.....
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Registered User
Really, Allen your Kung Fu is as bad as my spelling and typeing...stop arguing with us and go find a good teacher!.
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Registered User
If I'm remembering it correctly, I think the appropriate response to the last three posts goes something like, "I am rubber and you are glue..."
And sorry, RoyalD, I ain't Allen. But thanks for the compliment.
Last edited by iron tiger; 01-18-2007 at 05:35 PM. Reason: :)
Mind of No Mind...
Without reading the whole thread, but a decent part of it I have the following to say about the videos I saw:
The performances were OK in that the people seemed to have decent flexibility, athleticism and balance.
The body mechanics were poor to alright, but nothing I would put down as something to aspire to learn.
I cant speak of the actual styles, because the only one I have heavy experience with, variants and all, is Hung Gar, and I am reasonably sure that I saw no Hung in there, unless I am mistaken. So who knows, maybe that is what Northern Kung Fu looks like, or maybe not, I have definately seen worse at tournaments in forms performances. Overall, it was just exceedingly average, but I cant quite pinpoint what didnt feel right about it. Was there any Hung in there?
-Golden Arms-
Banned
Dude, I'm BEGGING you. Use the QUOTE /QUOTE in brackets []
PLEASE!!!!
Registered User
Never!! :d
Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.
For the Women:
Registered User
Is it really John Allen?
first, I'd like to ask about what exactly is the difference between "Chinese" and "Western" posture and mechanics? as far as I can tell, while the way in which the descriptions of how to get to the proper dynamic alignment are different (Chinese descriptions tend to be somewhat more metaphorical), the desired end result is the same; the whole "ancient Chinese secret" schtick is just a lot of mumbo to try to put someone off when they see something that looks strange: the body is the body - there is nothing more secret or occult about body mechanics that the Chinese have figured out that other's have not, and that is a fact;
that said, from any perspective, the alignment and integration of the performers is essentially non-existant (and spare me the "you don't know what you're looking at" schtick: I know exactly what I am looking at, from a variety of pespecives); I don't know (or care) about any sort of 1/2 second rule (and if this is a classical Chinese concept, please give the characters for that particular saying...in fact, are you capable of stating ANYTHING in Chinese at all, since you repeatedly claim that you are studying a classical system - I don't know of ANYONE who has studied a classical system who hadn't learned at least some principles, concepts in the original language...)
I pray that the days of "this is so super secret that you could never hope to understand it" are almost over - the sooner people get real about things like "internal training" and realize that it can be very nicely described in a non-mumbo jumbo context, the sooner we will be rid of guys like Iron Tiger...
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Don't see where anyone said anything about anything being 'secret' let alone 'super secret.'
But it's a fact that many Chinese teachers held back some of the more "unconventional" training methods even after the decision had been made by some of them to teach non-Chinese back in the ca. mid-60s.
Ong, for example, died without passing on a lot of what he actually knew.
The hard work & humility provisos keep the majority of other contemporary kung fu students from ever accessing some of the "super secret" info that has been made available in a very small handful of schools.
Didn't say "all boxers fail to punch from the legs" etc, nor was "all" ever meant to mean "a subset of all people who box" et al.
But it's a fact that some of the skills overviewed (ie pitchers & javelin throwers driving from the legs, good boxers, et al) require more time & work to achieve than the handful of practice sessions many people seem to believe are needed.
And there are schools out there training the internal (ie chi) side of the arts no matter what you may care to believe.
The problem is that so few people actually use many of the more technical, in terms of body mechanics, insights the Chinese pioneered and utilized. You very rarely see many of these kinds of things occuring in Western sports, and when you do it's most often in the more highly technical events like Olympic weight lifting or track's field events. Certainly not in MA combat tournaments nowadays.there is nothing more secret or occult about body mechanics that the Chinese have figured out that other's have not
And it's a fact that fighters like Feemon Ong and Tung Shen Chang had more going on than mere 'body mechanics' when they trained & fought.
That is not a problem at all. Peculiar that this would be an issue for you, though, rather than just ignoring the thread; when the content is actually read carefully at all.the sooner we will be rid of...Iron Tiger
Amazing.Is it really John Allen?
(Final bow out)
Last edited by iron tiger; 01-19-2007 at 11:40 AM. Reason: would not post correctly on first or second try
could you please provide some sort of citation / reference to this? if it is in fact an old Chinese concept, there ought to be some sort of aphorism stating it
"supposed" to look like? man, you have bought into the whole schtick hook, line and sinker - Chinese fighting isn't "supposed" to look like anything except the guy who wins walking away in one piece as much as possible
again, what is the reference source for this? what style espoused this? wht are the characters for this?
against compliant, non-resisting opponents, I;m sure they looked awesome...
ok, again, what are these "principles"? every style that I know of that is CMA that has a list of principles will have a series of key sayings or words: for example, the taichi I practice has our "10 Principles" that talk about alignment, structure, movement, etc. - I can name them, write them, etc. - why can't you, if you are so well versed in your system?
this is almost incoherent - are you saying that some people are natural fighters no matter what they do? if so, I agree, which further illustrates my point that there is nothing particularly unique about "Chinese" versus non-Chinese fighting in sofar as conferring some sort of specific advantage over another way
so, you must have learned some Tao Te Ching? I Ching? the Sun Tzu? what EXACTLY makes what you learned "classical"?
gimmie a break - the ol' "why we are better than everyone else" routine - if you haven't figured out the inherent fallacy of this construct, you are so far gone as to barely be worth the trouble pointing it out to...
total BS - a nice way to lead on the trusting nervous beginner - like the Emperor's clothes, you prey on someone's insecurities - let me guess - the instructors knew better than the student what was happening inside them, right? total cr@pola - it's the same schtick a lot of energy healer types pull on patiens - totally unethical and bogus; you obviously have no idea of what constitutes "real" internal - not from a Chinese perspective, not from a western one either, otherwise you would know better than to say something as ridiculous as that;
why? what is so special about doing something without weights versus with weights? muscle physiolog is pretty specific, and depending how you train, specific things happen - isometric versus isokinetic, etc. - you get neurological (the initial boost is due to increased neural recruitment, not hypertrophy) and then fiber changes, in that order, and that's it - and again, you make this general statement about how the Chinese do it - which Chinese? how can you possibly presume to lump the entire country into this? ludicrous
who? which teachers? how do you know this? a total generalized, unbsubstantiated BS comment if ever there was one - some probably held stuff back, but beyond that, you can't say for sure unless you know something specific, which I doubt you do
how do you know this? if he died without passing it on, then theoretically you wouldn't know it existed - unless he said something on his deathbed to that effect? more BS...
my point is that, intrinsically, there is no such thing as "super secret", except what some one tells you is "super secret" - I mean, someone, somewhere had to discover the info at one point, so obviously anyone else has the same potential...and again, you make a very generalized unsubtantiable statement that is remeniscent of '70's KF Theater mumbo - which "small handful" of schools? be specific if you want to make statement that we should take as credible
yes, there are - but what is "chi"? it's not some mystical force - it's simply a metaphorical decription of the net set of functional interrelationships in the body, including musculoskeletal, neurological, vascular, lymphatic, digestive, endocrine, circadian, connective tissue, emotional, etc. - and it also relates to the efect of the external environment as well - weather, food, terrain, planetary, gravitational etc. - if you think chi is somesort of independently existing magical energy, you're living in a fantasy land; and being such as it is, anyone can cultivate it in any number of ways, as well as independently arrive at more subtle ways of doing so, provided they spend the time listening a bit more closely to themselves
bull c@p - there are many other cultures that approach body mechanics that have done so well before or at least at the same time and independently: take a little look at physical culture history of Greece, Egypt, Persia and India for starters and their is plenty of evidence to that effect
total BS: what do you mean "mere" body mechanics? your characterization of body mechnics as being somehow inferior to somethng else (there is nothing else, sorry) belies your bias; there is no evidence of your notion that there is somesort of extraordinary, paranormal component to traiing, fighting, etc. that you guys think exists; and BTW, when / where did either of these guys fight? and against whom? 30 years ago, maybe they took on a bunch of hypnotized kung-fooey types, but I suspect that their "special" training wouldn't do much for them in todays MA environment...
the content is read very carefully, and the outcome is that you have a tremendous propensity to overgeneralize, cite as fact highly non-specific information, and have a fantastical, romantic notion of what constitues things like "internal" training;
THAT would be amazing...
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