Green Dragon Studios

[lotus storm]

Can they fight?
They can fight.
From the posts above, it seems the author is defending everything Green Dragon does as the "old way" of training but I would say that they just do some things well and some things poorly
Maybe that is because it is taken out of original context, I will have to go find the whole orighinal thread if it's still there. But how do you mean "poorly", in relation to what or to what goal? Curious.

[chessman71]

When I said poorly, I meant that Green Dragon obviously emphasizes strength sets and southern shaolin, and does those things well. Other styles were done poorly i.e the body movement was more southern shaolin than the type of movement that the style in question specializes in. For instance, the taiji was way too tense and was clearly not being performed correctly. The bagua also was very tense and tended to display disconnected arm movements. The fact that it was linear bagua was immaterial (several styles have linear bagua). The disconnected arm movements and tension should not be present in either taiji or bagua. Looking at commonly accepted bagua and taiji experts will clearly show you the difference.

Again, any school that does that many styles is bound to do some better than others. It would be impossible for them not to so I'm not really knocking them. What I'm saying is that Green Dragon should admit they specialize in certain areas and leave it at that. Anyone ordering their tapes should be aware of those specialties as well and not buy claims that poorly done styles are simply being performed in the "old way."

Dave C.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know about all of it, but I have thier Tai tzu tapes. my critique:

Body structure - horrible

Mechanics - horrible

Flavor/flow of Long Fist - even worse

fundementals period - horrible

This is comming from me, a guy who ain't that good himself, so from a more taleneted player of Chinese Long Fist, I'd imagine they are most likely going to look even worse.

They all seem to be really sculpted, and monster strong though.

[IronFist]

They can fight.
From the posts above, it seems the author is defending everything Green Dragon does as the "old way" of training

Like I said, can they fight?

The only vid I've seen of two "old school masters" fighting was these two old TMA guys circling around each other in a ring bonking each other on the heads with hammer fists. A first year MMA student could have mopped the floor with either of them.

[IronFist]

I must give props to Green Dragon for emphasizing the strength aspect of things, tho. On every tape of Sifu Allen I've ever seen he repeats the concept that "you must have the strength to use the techniques you've been taught." I agree 100%.

[Royal Dragon]

I agree to, BUT I think thier over emphisis on fittness and strengh has more to do with the fact that they totally lack the body structure, mechanics, and propper power generation methods used in Chinese martial arts PERIOD, let alone the methods specific to the styles they supposedly do.

To me, they look like forms collectors, who missed the essence of the art, especially in the Tai Tzu tapes I have. What they do on those tapes looks nothing likeTai Tzu Chang Chuan outside of the fact that the series of techniques are strung together like a Tai Tzu set would be.

[lotus storm]

I've written some long posts on Stone Warrior. You can search for them using the search feature

Can't seem to find them. But still looking.

The only vid I've seen of two "old school masters" fighting was these two old TMA guys circling around each other in a ring bonking each other on the heads with hammer fists. A first year MMA student could have mopped the floor with either of them.

I would doubt that the two combatants were "old school masters" as defined, with demonstrations (as they frequently do or did) by Tung Shen Chang, Chicoine, Feemon Ong, or Sifu Allen himself. Looking at and analyzing the combat apps given on tape following the forms teaching is one way to gain an idea of the "flavor" of how the "old school masters" (actually trained in the old ways as opposed to just what the ads say) actually fought (centerline closure; speed [half-second paradigm in evidence] and complexity of execution & technique; maneuvering; among several other considerations).

You are aware that Allen/Green Dragon has a quite extensive video library, going back years, of: some actual "old school style" tournament matches, Grandmaster Chang in action (and taking it more seriously than he often did in many demos), modern competitors (current "high level" people according to most mainstream estimates) which they are then able to show at work in a side by side comparison and contrast evaluation etc for teaching purposes?

Those areas seem to be their specialties

By their own statement the school "specializes" in: weapons training (all 72 classical Chinese weapons plus several others), rare or unusual advanced-level fighting sets, and authentic (ie able to produce the "fabled" internal power along with other qualities, for example atypical speed in execution\) Chinese power/strength inducing sets & programs.

Would be very interested to find your (IronFist) posts on the Stone Warrior. A friend (who has a much larger batch of varying tapes than I do) has been seriously into the SW among some other strength sets for several years (and has a background as a power lifter and Div I football player as well against which to intelligently gauge and appraise the benefits of such "isotonic" approaches using programs of progressive daily repetitions), we would both like to read about your insights and experieces with the Stone Warrior training.

thnx--lotus storm

[lotus storm]

IronFist---I am only able to find this thread so far

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...0&page=3&pp=15

from one comment it sounds like your more "in-depth" postings came in threads which may no longer be accessible?

I was surprised by this series of statements however:

You know, this thread reminds me of when I used to do Stone Warrior every day in my dorm for the first few months of freshman year (I had been doing it for a few months prior to that as well, but I only went up to 16 reps per exercise, not 36. It still took 35-40 minutes), thinking that I had some secret Chinese strength program that was going to make me stronger than all my friends in the weightroom.

Fortunately, one weekend I got the flu and when I was at home I was researching weightlifting and bodybuilding on the internet because I had been talking to some of my friends who lifted weights prior to this and was thinking about giving it a try (I thought weightlifting = bodybuilding, as do most noobs) and I found some good resources. I think that's the weekend that I bought Arnold's New Modern Bodybuilding Encyclopedia or whatever it's called, and although the routines in that book are not good for natural trainees, and it contains some physiological falacies (upper/lower abs), I still thought it was a sweet book that motivated the hell out of me. When I got back to school after I had recovered I decided to give weight lifting a try instead and the rest is history

You stopped long before ever reaching what is considered the beginning of the actual program (36 reps per exercise; 12 reps per is suggested for people who are not accustomed to such kinds of training and need to build up to the starting level)? Then how are you able to make a fair and accurate assessment of its value?

Also based on several other statements it sounds like you have never really done hardly any Chinese programs or hard work on forms. How do you justify your dismissive pov then with respect to that kind of demanding, daily, complex training?

[chessman71]

I've never done stone warrior but I did do Green Dragon's iron buddha strength form for about a year in the early nineties. At the time I was heavily involved in choy lay fut and I was trying to strength train the "Chinese way" if you catch my drift.

From my experience, the isometrics found in Chinese strength programs add an interesting "muscle control" element to any MA program that can enhance overall strength and power development. However, doing these Chinese strength programs as one's sole means of strength training is VASTLY more inefficient IMO than weight lifting.

Properly done, heavy lifting can stress the muscles to the max within minutes of training, allowing maximum benefits to be gained in minimum amounts of time. Chinese isometric workouts like stone warrior and the iron buddha strength set seem to work in the exact opposite way: they require a maximum output over an extended period to produce results. It's simply less efficient strength training because the body adapts to the training but you're never really able to increase the work load. So at some point, stone warrior, etc. becomes an endurance program, not a strength program.

Weightlifting doesn't seem to have this problem because you can always increase the amount of weight you lift in order to challenge yourself (or the number of reps). With iron buddha, etc. you don't have that option. All you can do is increase the number of reps. It's simply less efficient IMO.

Dave C.

[IronFist]

Now that I'm better versed in the science of physiology and exercise science I understand the limitations of dynamic tension exercises. And even if it was superior to weight training, no one has the time to spend 90 minutes a day on Stone Warrior. You know what I mean. No saying "well, if you were committed enough you would." The fact that better results can be gained in much less time from a weight program is fine with me, anyway.

Dynamic tension can have it's place in a comprehensive training routine, but it's not the end all be all of training. If it were terribly useful, some Olympic level or professional athletes would use it for something.

The only real benefit I can see from something like Stone Warrior would be increasing one's ability to hold muscular contractions for long periods of time. This is a basic example of SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands). In other words, your body gets better at what you make it do and worse at what you don't make it do. But how often in life do you need to hold muscular tension for long periods of time? Certaintly not in fighting. Of course, bodybuilders have a huge need for this (posing on stage during shows), and they practice posing for long periods of time in order to do so.

Sure, it "increases power through the motions of fighting movements," but you can get the same increase in neurological efficiency through doing the same movements fast and without tension, and the dynamic tension isn't really going to transfer over when you are doing the aforementioned movement in a combat situation.

And the there's the "body hardening" aspect that they talk about. I dunno about that one. Maybe, maybe not. But carrying around residual tension probably isn't the most healthy thing in the world, if that's where the "body hardening" comes from.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, I have done both. I found that the dynamic tension can progressively be increased by just squeezing harder as you do the movement. It seems to help build the resistance to impact more than anything.

Now, doing those types of exercises AFTER weights has some good effects too, in the nature of speeding the development over weights alone.

[pruningmantis]

hello everybody,

i'm new to this forum and was just browsing when i saw somthing about Green Dragon studios out of Stowe Ohio. i have several of there tapes:forms as well as fundementals and strength exercises. in my opinion they excell in the fundementals as well as the strength training and i feel they don't really lack in the form department so much as i would like more move by move instruction and less of the watch and follow. the applications portions of the forms tapes are outstanding,but we all know the street and the dojo are two diffrent places when it comes to appliing what we know.

[Royal Dragon]

hello everybody,

i'm new to this forum and was just browsing when i saw somthing about Green Dragon studios out of Stowe Ohio. i have several of there tapes:forms as well as fundementals and strength exercises.

in my opinion they excell in the fundementals

Reply]
I beg to differ. If thier fundementals are so good, how come their backs are arched, butts are stuck out, shoulders are pulled back and not rounded, and their chests are puffed out, instead of sunken?? Everything I see on the tapes I have is 180 degrees WRONG from good, proper fundemntals of Chinese martial arts. If you meant they excell at being backwards, and wrong, then I agree.



>as well as the strength training

Reply]
Yes, they do seem to have strength training down pat. Even the most critical has to give credit, where credit is due.

>and i feel they don't really lack in the form department

Reply]
I don't know about the rest, but thier Tai Tzu set is a HORRIBLE representation of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. There are no fundementals, or even the basic ball park flavor of the style.

>>so much as i would like more move by move instruction and less of the watch and follow.

Reply]
Personally I like the format the videos are presented. I think the multi-angles and the way they break it down is done very well.

>>the applications portions of the forms tapes are outstanding,but we all know the street and the dojo are two diffrent places when it comes to appliing what we know.

Reply]
Actually, I found the applications to be highly unplausible, and in several cases down right silly. But that was just one tape, maybe the rest are better.

[pruningmantis]

as i said in my earlier post i'm new to this forum and have joined not to confront people but to learn from them so thank you for you opinion royal dragon i will keep it in mind when i watch my green dragon tapes in the future.

[lotus storm]

Actually, I found the applications to be highly unplausible, and in several cases down right silly

Specifically?