Green Dragon Studios

[Royal Dragon]

I have San Zhen in my Southern Tai Tzu system. It's a dynamic tension set too.

I have experiance the hardening effect from it, but in all honesty, I am persuing the internal side of my style now, and all that tension just messes me up.

[Lohan Fury]

I've been through the Stone Warrior program. I started it at 9 reps and built up to 47 reps. I definitely felt a difference, and my Sifu will vouch for me on that. As a side note I was lifting weights and did lots of Tai Chi in conjunction with S.W. At the 36 rep mark it takes about an hour and a half to finish. That being said you can imagine what it would be like at 100+ reps PER DAY! No thanks..

"Everything in moderation". At the end of S.W. you have your blood pressure going through the roof, and you've spent a ton of Yang energy. Without some sort of balance you are only hurting yourself.

Dynamic tension is great not because it creates more muscle or even a more dense muscle, but because you trigger your nervous system into simply using more of the muscle that is already there! Our comrade Pavel explains that idea in his book "Power to the People", which I'd recommend to anyone practicing tension exercises.

Just keep in mind there is "no end all be all", only small pieces to a bigger puzzle..

_/\_

[IronFist]

^ LF did you do the exercises one sided, or did you do them symetrically?

Everyone else, if SW principles worked so soundly, professional and olympic athletes would be using them. There's a reason strongmen don't do SW. There's a reason powerlifters don't do SW. There's a reason UFC fighters don't do SW or incorporate its principles. Think about this for a sec: For many of these people, their livelihood depends on their athletic performance. If they perform well, they get paid, they eat, they live. If not, they have to find themselves new jobs. These people do whatever it takes to get the edge. They risk their professional and personal careers by using designer drugs (and masking agents, hehe). They have professionals (and I don't mean the kind you find working at your city's gym) designing their nutrition programs. Their programs are designed based on decades of sport science research. If constant dynamic tension was the most efficient method of any sort of development, these people would be doing it.

It's better than nothing. If I had no weights or anything else I would probably do SW. But because I have weights, I can achieve better results in less time.

I know how you feel. I used to do iron body (Wing Lam's kind with the internal exercises, bags, and jow) and SW every day. I know the arm hardness that you're talking about (of course, mine were already conditioned to take hits because of the iron body). When I flexed my forearm it was like a rock (and tiny). I used to talk **** about weightlifting and weight lifters. I used to think that my kung fu was effective in a real fight and grapplers could be stopped by kneeing them in the face when they came in for a take down. Then I got schooled in an MMA gym by someone in their first MONTH of training. Then I realized I got more out of weightlifting in a month than I did out of SW in a 6 months. My muscles are still 90% as "hard" as they were when I was doing SW, except I'm much, much stronger now, and I no longer hold any of the erroneous beliefs about weight training that permeate through the MA world.

If it works for you then keep doing it. I'm going to keep lifting weights and trying to find an MMA school around here so I can start training again because that's what works for me.

But when you're debating, you need more than conjecture to back up your points.

[Knifefighter]

There will probably always be a market for people who want to believe they will get an advantage by using some ancient secret training method.

As PT Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute."

I think I am going to market the ancient "training by osmosis" program that I have been using only for myself and a few close disciples up until now. This was a secret method used by the very first Shaolin Monks to transfer their lifetime of learning to their students...; lots of mystical incantations, herbs, and specialized forms. It far surpasses any training method that is currently being used. I have had the original scrolls for some time, but am only now thinking about releasing these secrets.

[Royal Dragon]

Your ancient *Osmossis* will NEVER beat my Caveasaurus Combat!!

[Knifefighter]

Your ancient *Osmossis* will NEVER beat my Caveasaurus Combat!!

Training by osmosis is far superior and I can prove it to you. I will send you the entire program, including all the natural herbs at a special discounted price of only $399.00 plus monthly payments of $59.95. I guarantee you will see phenomenal results better than anything you could hope to achieve with anything else. Just use it for the requisite six years that it takes for it to have an effect.

All you have to do to get started is to email me your bank account number, the routing code, your social security #, your mother's maiden name, and your pin #.
If you are not completely amazed by your results after six years, I will send you your money back.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, I guess I can't beat that pitch!!

My routing number is........

[IronFist]

All you have to do to get started is to email me your bank account number, the routing code, your social security #, your mother's maiden name, and your pin #.
If you are not completely amazed by your results after six years, I will send you your money back.

Zomg! Are you Nigerian royalty?

[Royal Dragon]

Doubt it, but I bet he is a Nigerian banker for a reacnetly deceased oil tycoon!

[Lohan Fury]

^ LF did you do the exercises one sided, or did you do them symetrically?

I've always alternated sides halfway through. It just doesn't make sense at all to train one side of your body and neglect the other.

I'm still skeptical about the claims to students performing 100+ reps a day. 47 reps took around 2hrs, so 100.. 4hrs or more of nothing but tension!?? There's no way that's healthy. Hope that student is prepared for an unexpected stroke or something of the likeness. (not to mention I'd rather spend 4hrs on something more worth that amount of dedication)

_/\_

[Royal Dragon]

I wouldn't do more than 40 minutes. Whne I did SanZhen, is was exaughsted in 40 minutes. When it got easier, I just tensed up more to increase the difficulty, so in 40 minnutes I was wiped out still.

[iron tiger]

There's a reason strongmen don't do SW. There's a reason powerlifters don't do SW. There's a reason UFC fighters don't do SW or incorporate its principles ETC

Of course. The list of "reasons" is virtually infinite. But none of them have to do with the Stone Warrior 'not working.'

Give me ONLY the Tai Tzu 32 move form, a set of Chinese locks, a fallen tree branch, and some string, and I can train some guys that will smoke your 8 monthers, in 6 months......

Of course, what was suggested as an 8 month orientation was not for fighting purposes; it was just about the bare minimum a serious, dedicated, hard-working martial arts student would likely need to do in order to discover for him-or-her self that none of the self-proclaimed 'experts' posting here know a thing about what actually happens to/in your body in training on these things the way one is supposed to (as opposed to how most CMA students wish it were done).

Assuming that one undertook the forms & reps per day along with the Chinese strength sets suggested & as specified using no slack time or easy reps or letting up on the tension etc.

And how did this CMA know this? Was he some sort of research Scientists, in a postion to look at brains all day and see first hand that certian exercises had this effect?

Many of the old masters knew about this, and other, effects induced by proper training. And passed the knowledge down the line in certain cases.

The long history of the CMA includes a large percentage of varying kinds & levels of brutality, for those who need reminding.

But by definition you cannot train hard AND long

Actually you can. If by 'hard' you mean with maximum effort, whatever your ultimate max may be on a given rep.

But few, if any, athletes can start out with this kind of capability. You have to start slowly and gradually build up to it. There's very little carry over from experience in things like weight lifting, btw, you have to really teach your body how stay properly tensed (paradoxically under a kind of relaxed tension) maximally while still allowing correct movement to take place.

It's worth noting: lifting weights is almost all rest; very little of each movement requires maximum effort, although this can vary depending, eg, on how you happen to be working the negative part of a rep etc. Whereas these isotonically-based exercises, particularly when done as full-blown programs as opposed to mere occasional collections of exercises, are 100% work done with total effort.

Every muscle. From the toes to the head. Every day.

I have experiance the hardening effect from it, but in all honesty, I am persuing the internal side of my style now, and all that tension just messes me up

Contrary to popular belief, the two (internal & external) are neither antithetical nor mutually exclusive of each other. Many authentic Chinese strength & power programs build both simultaneously; the Stone Warrior (eg exercises #8 & 19), for instance.



And while I would tend to believe you may have experienced some of the hardening effects from some of the more widely utilized types of dynamic tension exercises, everything else you say makes it a virtual certainty that you have no where near experienced the complete hardening effects of such programs.

I've been through the Stone Warrior program. I started it at 9 reps and built up to 47 reps

I sincerely doubt it. That it was done correctly, that is, if in fact it was done at all, daily, at maximum tension, for the period of time it would require to build from 9 reps per exercise to 47.

Just about impossible to get to that number, correctly done, without inducing some of the collateral internal effects.

My muscles are still 90% as "hard" as they were when I was doing SW

More direct evidence that your 'in-depth' knowledge of SW is utter b.s. Again: in truth, you never got to square 1 with it. And I'm pretty well certain you didn't complete the Snake Turns Over program, either. Otherwise you'd have something to say about it's internal aspects.

As PT Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute."

And 99 out of 100 of them call themselves "traditional Chinese martial artists" when in fact the majority of their training is Westernized & karate-fied...

4hrs or more of nothing but tension!??

No--movement under tension.

There's no way that's healthy

Demonstrating, yet again, that there's no way any of you guys knows a darn thing about the internal aspects of these sets; ie that, if you did do try them to various extents, you certainly didn't do them correctly or finish them out.

It is true that in many cases it's the teaching which is at fault; but it's also obvious that there's usually a heckuva lot of "cooperation" on the part of such instuctors' paying students, too.

You can have the best program in the world, but if almost no one will stick with it because of the "daily time demands" and the "psychological component", for all intents and purposes, that would make it just about completely worthless for most people

Who said this stuff was for "most people"? It is not, especially if all you are interested in are the sport styles & approaches.

Then I realized I got more out of weightlifting in a month than I did out of SW in a 6 months

I still say it is better to use the dynamic tension stuff to augment other methods.

Well said. You could hit the weghts for 40 minutes, and get faster strength results, and spend the saved time on skill work.

Sure, if sport style or Westernized CMA & the relatively low-level skill level it/they require is your preference, weights are better. But I thought I had already said that (in various ways; eg "1 out of 99" etc).

Clearly, weights are better for most of the people who frequent most of the internet MA boards.

But every now & then, an IronWeasel type does pass through. And those are the guys, the rare exceptions, the ones who structure their training & goals around things like the Chinese half-second paradigm from very early on, some of us are directing the info to.

But best of luck in your training whatever choice you make.

[Royal Dragon]

And how did this CMA know this? Was he some sort of research Scientists, in a postion to look at brains all day and see first hand that certian exercises had this effect?

Many of the old masters knew about this, and other, effects induced by proper training. And passed the knowledge down the line in certain cases.

Reply]
And exactly *How* did they know this? Did they have ancient electron micorscopes coupled with Exray, or MIR machines to measure the cellular growth in the human brian when they trained?

How did they figure it out? You can't just majically *Know* something that is going in on the INSIDE of a sealed skull, on the cellular level.

If that were possible, we would not need MRI's Exrays, or Ultra sound to diagnose patients today....

[Royal Dragon]

It's worth noting: lifting weights is almost all rest; very little of each movement requires maximum effort, although this can vary depending, eg, on how you happen to be working the negative part of a rep etc. Whereas these isotonically-based exercises, particularly when done as full-blown programs as opposed to mere occasional collections of exercises, are 100% work done with total effort.

Every muscle. From the toes to the head. Every day.

Reply]
You cna't do maximum effort, and be able to perform for any length of time.

Also, without recoverytime, the body will not develop quickly, and will be suseptable to injury. You cannot go 100% 7 days a week, and expect to perform at your full potential. You get more development during rest that you did during the exercises you are resting from.

This has nothig ot do with Chinese, or Western thinking, it's a biological fact that cannot be disputed.

[iron tiger]

How did they figure it out?

Think about it. I did give you a clue.