Green Dragon Studios

[ChuangkTzu]

After it was announced, Sifu Allen was moving to Edinburg, I needed to find a closer place to train. I had a good friend who was learning Tai Chi at Bob Kreuger's Yee Sing School. He highly recommended this school, so I decided to check it out. It was located at 779 N. Main Street in Akron. I have to admit, the studio itself was really cool. It was up on the 3rd floor of an old Masonic Temple. The training floor was huge and there was raised theater-like seating surrounding it. The people there seemed friendly and the whole atmosphere had a nice vibe to it. I told Mr. Kreuger that my friend had recommended his school and he was very cordial and polite. I thought to myself "this might be my new Kung-Fu school". Then class started, and it became apparent that it wouldn't be. The opening warm-up was semi-structured i.e. stances, etc., but the rest of the class was like the blind leading the blind. There was NO instruction. The students were trying to remember moves of a form they were working on, and it was almost painful to watch. Half way through the class, one of Mr. Kreuger's advanced students performed Fa Kuen and Gok Fee Kuen. In all fairness, the guy did a pretty nice job. Then he and Mr. Kreuger went back to Kreuger's office and left the students on their own again. Coming from GD (order and structure), I just couldn't stomach that.

I had passed Alex Wasil's Wing Sing School on my way to Kreuger's School. The following week, I went to check it out. At GD, we were required to bring a training manual to all classes. Out of habit, I brought a notebook with me to take notes of the class. Looking back, it was very funny. Alex Wasil thought I was a spy from another school since I was taking notes. He brought me into his office to interrogate me. His studio was dark and depressing and his students (including his son) seemed to be genuinely intimidated by him. The quality of his students was poor in my opinion. I was very depressed when I got home that evening, knowing there was no way I could train at either of those schools. If I couldn't be at GD, I at least wanted to train in the Kwan Ying Do system, because of all the stories I had heard Sifu Allen tell of Master Ong. I went to the Yellow Pages and began to search. That is were I found the Chung Sing School of Chinese Martial Arts. Unlike Mr. Kreuger's and Al Wasil's large yellow page ads, Chung Sing only had one line. I called and spoke with Mr. Bob Keen. I asked permission to watch a class and he said I should come by whenever it was convenient for me. I went to a Tuesday night class and was impressed. Sifu Allen demanded a student's respect. Mr. Keen didn't, but had it nevertheless. I was so impressed that a man in his mid 60's at the time (now 77), was doing everything the students were doing ie. low stances, opening warm-up, arm grabs, three star, etc.

Running out of time, I will finish post later tonight or tomorrow.
Chuang Tzu

[ChuangkTzu]

A continuation from my previous posting.

At Chung Sing, we learned many tokens or forms. Mr. Keen also taught a lot of line drills similar to what GD shows on their opening warm-up tape. I always enjoyed his line drills and what he referred to as "Pier 9" or fighting techniques. Although the 3 cardinal principles of Chinese fighting were not taught, most of his fighting techniques contain their principles nevertheless. Mr. Keen was always generous with his time and very patient. I don't ever remember seeing him in a bad mood. You also never heard him say a bad word about anybody. He might be the most humble man I've ever met. It is funny, I've met many people from the different Kwan Ying Do schools, and I have never heard anyone from those schools say anything negative about Mr. Keen. Without a doubt, that is not the case with the others: Allen, Chicoine, Kreuger, and Wasil. When the other men were brought up, it was all or nothing. The people either love them, or couln't stand them. I'll always have fond memories of my time spent at Chung Sing.

Chuang Tzu

[ChuangkTzu]

The first time I saw Stephen Ong perform, my first thought was "he doesn't move like the other Kwan Ying Do people I've seen" (GD included). When Stephen demonstrates a form, he produces a coordinated, explosive, Fa-Jing-type power. The first time I saw Mike Biggie perform, my response was "Whoa!". Biggie produces the same explosive power, but in my opinion, it is even more evident.

It is obvious Sifu Allen, his GD students, and many of the Kwan Ying Do people have a healthy measure of external strength. I think Royal Dragon is accurate, however, when he describes GD's body alignment and structure. There is no doubt their strength developing forms (Goun Gee Kuen, Teet Lo Han Chin Ch'uan, and Stone Warrior) have paid dividends for them. It's obvious they can generate power, even from unorthodox positions. Is this desireable? Yes. Would I rather have the explosive Fa-Jing power Biggie and Ong possess? ABSOLUTELY! I feel GD and Chung Sing have much to offer. Knowing what I know now, however, it would have been nice to have started training with Biggie from the getgo.

Mike is dedicated to Kung-Fu and he is not afraid to share and teach his knowledge. His power transfers to weapons work as well. I remember stopping by late one Thursday night when he was in the process of opening his new school. He happened to be putting some of his weapons up on the wall. As I walked in, he was holding a Tiger Fork. This wasn't a wushu model, this sucker looked and later felt heavy. I asked him if he liked the Tiger Fork, and his response was "Do you want me to show you?" He proceeded to do a form. It was impressive. I have a copy of a Kwan Ying Do demonstration from 1983. On the tape, Al Wasil demonstrates a Tiger Fork form. It was like grade school compared to Mike's performance. Mike plays both Praying Mantis and Choy Li Fut. Although he is equally adept at both, I really enjoy watching him play his Choy forms. He knows his applications as well. I first became acquainted with Mike through a guy I met who had been a Yee Sing student for many years. He had attained black belt status, but learned he couldn't apply any of it when he met Mike. Biggie will play hands with you, and feed you back the amount of energy you feed him. It's a humbleing experience, but at the same time, a real eye-opener. I think North-East Ohio is fortunate to have someone of Mike's caliber teaching openly. Got to run.

Chuang Tzu

[iron tiger]

There is no doubt their strength developing forms (Goun Gee Kuen, Teet Lo Han Chin Ch'uan, and Stone Warrior) have paid dividends for them

But why not you??

[Knifefighter]

The first time I saw Stephen Ong perform, my first thought was "he doesn't move like the other Kwan Ying Do people I've seen" (GD included). When Stephen demonstrates a form, he produces a coordinated, explosive, Fa-Jing-type power. The first time I saw Mike Biggie perform, my response was "Whoa!". Biggie produces the same explosive power, but in my opinion, it is even more evident.

It is obvious Sifu Allen. his GD students, and many of the Kwan Ying Do people have a healthy measure of external strength.

He proceeded to do a form. It was impressive.

You cannot tell if someone has functional power by watching him do a form.

[Royal Dragon]

You cannot tell if someone has functional power by watching him do a form.

Reply]
That is not nessasarily true. You can look and see how well rooted they are, and how structurally aligned they are. You can watch thier movement and see if they have good mechanics or not. If they do, you know they have functional power, if the don't, you know they don't have it.

If you have someone who is clearly strong (Benchs 450 for example), but does not have funtional use of that strength, the first thing a good coach looks at is his structural alignment, and body mechancis. It is a visable thing that simple observation can spot.

Of course, if you are physically weak to begin with, even if your structure and mechanics are perfect, you still need to do some sort of progressive resistance exercises to develop your strength in the first place.

Propper structure, and mechanics are what makes Strength functional, or not. You can clearly see that in empty hand movement. You can't really judge fighting skills by looking at a persons form, but you can definately judge functional strength, and coach it's improvement through observation.

[Black Jack II]

If you have someone who is clearly strong (Benchs 450 for example), but does not have funtional use of that strength, the first thing a good coach looks at is his structural alignment, and body mechancis. It is a visable thing that simple observation can spot

.

Bench is bad choice for that statement bro. Bench is a compound movement which is all about functional strength. A better statement may be a isolation curl or something.

[Knifefighter]

That is not nessasarily true. You can look and see how well rooted they are, and how structurally aligned they are. You can watch thier movement and see if they have good mechanics or not. If they do, you know they have functional power, if the don't, you know they don't have it.

That's what the B.S. forms people would like everyone to believe.

And that's exactly the reason so many TMA people get completely schooled when they fight a fighter.

[Royal Dragon]

A Bench does not really engage the whole body, Just the upper body. Functional strength is basically useable strength, which mean the whole body must move in harmony, not isolation. The Curl however is an even better example than mine, as it isolates even more then a bench does.

That's what the B.S. forms people would like everyone to believe.

And that's exactly the reason so many TMA people get completely schooled when they fight a fighter.

Reply]
No, not really. Bad coaching is the real reason. Not enough two man application practice, and not enough resisting free sparring. Guys that do all that fight really well, as you can see in San Shou.

Many modern martial art schools are catering to the beginner/health/ hobby market. You cannot compare them to fight schools. A good fight school will produce fighters, it does not matter wheather they teach TCMA, or some form of MMA.

[iron_silk]

You cannot tell if someone has functional power by watching him do a form.

From my limited experience when I see practicioners from the same schools (and different schools) perform a fist set (etc) I do notice a difference.

I notice those who actively spar and those who do not tend to play their set differently. Now this isn't completely true in every case but there seems to be a trend that if they to apply and spar they seem to perform their set with more aggressive manner than those who do not.

I verified by asking the practicioners. I may be wrong but has anybody else notice this?

[Black Jack II]

Royal,

Could it be your confusing functional strength with a overall display of focused athletics?

[Mas Judt]

I think you need to ask 'functional' for what?

RD - you are referring to 'refined' strength - KF - is talking about using it in a fight. (I think, based on his previous posts)

If you really want to know if you can project your 'refined' strength and make it truly 'functional' - free-fighting can go a long way to helping you make what you are trying to do real.

[JDK]

A continuation from my previous posting.

At Chung Sing, we learned many tokens or forms. Mr. Keen also taught a lot of line drills similar to what GD shows on their opening warm-up tape. I always enjoyed his line drills and what he referred to as "Pier 9" or fighting techniques. Although the 3 cardinal principles of Chinese fighting were not taught, most of his fighting techniques contain their principles nevertheless. Mr. Keen was always generous with his time and very patient. I don't ever remember seeing him in a bad mood. You also never heard him say a bad word about anybody. He might be the most humble man I've ever met. It is funny, I've met many people from the different Kwan Ying Do schools, and I have never heard anyone from those schools say anything negative about Mr. Keen. Without a doubt, that is not the same with the others: Allen, Chicoine, Kreuger, and Wasil. When the other men were brought up, it was all or nothing. The people either love them, or couln't stand them. I'll always have fond memories of my time spent at Chung Sing.

Chuang Tzu

Sorry you had to through the painful process of seeing the bad off-shoots of Master Ong's School. ( I could have saved you the trouble if we knew each other)

Bob Keen IS one of the nicest , most polite AND proficient martial artists and human being I have ever met and the had the privilage of trianing under. The last time I saw him was his 70th Birthday Party during Chinese New Year at the Silver Pheasant Restuarant in Stow. He still looked great.

I decided to try and "take him on" one time in class ( friendly and respectful of course) in 3 Star Blocking Exercise. He was about 68 at the time.
I had gotten the reputation of being pretty strong with my technigues and was asked to do a demonstration as a White Belt/

Anyways....to put it simply..MY FOREARMS STILL ACHE FROM THAT FOOLISH ATTEMPT OF MINE
He didnt bully me ( although he had every right) he simply matched..and then took it up a notch everytime I did. I tell you I used my waist, legs, low stance, everything thing I knew to generate power...while this 68 year old man reamained calm and nearly broke my arm!!!!!!!!!!!

As for Stephen Ong...all one has to do is watch him teach or perform a token to KNOW beyond any doubt that he has functional, expolsive, quick, fexible
and devesating power and speed.

I remember a particuliar "Fish Token" he performed at a demonstration when he was about 19. WOW. He literally took the entire audience by surprise as he seemed to effortlessly leap 6 feet into the air,spin 180 degree's while being horizontle to the ground,with his ankles crossed and land as softly as a Cat. ( I later learned that particuliar move's martial application was wrapping your legs around your opponents head and twisting his neck , thereby flipping his body !

Bob Keen is an instructor who has taught in obscurity and desired no fame or noteriety, I think its time I visit him.

I too have very fond memories of Chung Sing...and I can almost assure you that if I walked in tonight Bob would say " Where the hell ya been? get your ass out here and and start working out!" while flashing that sublte grin of his.

JDK

[ChuangkTzu]

Bob Keen IS one of the nicest , most polite AND proficient martial artists and human being I have ever met and the had the privilage of trianing under. The last time I saw him was his 70th Birthday Party during Chinese New Year at the Silver Pheasant Restuarant in Stow. He still looked great. JDK

I could be wrong, but I remember his 70th birthday party being at the Galaxy Restaurant in Wadsworth. He sure doesn't look his age, does he?

[ChuangkTzu]

At a Q&A session I was attending (also on the Q&A video tapes), Sifu Allen mentioned having an extensive film library of Master Feeman Ong. Evidently, they had yearly demonstrations, which Allen helped film. He spoke of the huge difference between Ong and the so-called "celebrity masters" on the west coast (Ong being much better). After seeing his son Stephen perform, I regret never having had the privilege of seeing the Master Ong footage. At the end of the 1983 Kwan Ying Do demonstation video, Master Ong does break numerous bamboo rods (which are being held up only with newspaper), without ripping the paper. Unfortunately, there is no forms footage of Master Ong on this tape, due to a severe ankle sprain he sustained a few weeks earlier. You see him favoring his ankle as he walks up to the bamboo rods, and he actually slips and falls at one point during the rod-breaking performance.

I'd be curious if anybody in this forum has seen the footage, or has witnessed Master Feeman Ong perform live.

It has often been questioned on this forum if Allen really did train with Ark Wong. He mentioned it more than once at the Q&A sessions I had attended. I don't remember if he mentions that on the Q&A video tapes. If I remember correctly, he started, during his summer vacations, making treks out to California to train with Wong. I think he stated he had been with Ong approximately 4 years when he started training with Wong. He always spoke highly of Wong, and agreed with him regarding many things, including weapons training: You don't need years of empty-hand forms to be able to start weapons training. I have corresponded with a guy who trains in the Five Family/Five Animal Style. He told me he highly doubted Allen trained with Wong prior to watching the Q&A video tapes. After watching the tapes, he feels almost positive he DID train with Wong.

Chuang Tzu