Green Dragon Studios

[Li Ma-Keh]

I agree that it is two-fold!!! Leg strength AND mental/physical Discipline!!! No matter 'whos' stances 'or' postures of any height , you hold,....it's a 'feeling' as explained by C. Jung that the monks had to endure! But,..with excellent results,...again', no matter 'whos' stances/postures/static programs you train under,(as long as the mechanics of healthy posture and alignment are correct). Li Ma-Keh

[Royal Dragon]

,(as long as the mechanics of healthy posture and alignment are correct). Li Ma-Keh

Reply]
That is just it though, The guys at Green dragon have a totally WRONG body structure, and since the mechanics are built on the structure, their mechanics are wrong too. Who cares how long they hold what, and how much mental fortitude it builds, if it's wrong, it's wrong, and those who practice wrong, no matter how hard they do so...suck.

Stance work is first and foremost to develop good structure and skelital alignment. Building strength, and more so endurance and mental toughness is secondary. If you hold a horse stance for 10 minutes with your back arched, shoulders back, chest out, then you are wrong, and you are reinforceing how wrong you are. Someone who does not hold at all is better off than you because they aren't trying as hard as they can to be as wrong as possible.

Now, the guy who keeps to the principals and holds for 10 minutes is the one who will get all the bennifits, and it will show in everything else they do. What all of the seniors on Green Dragon tapes show, are exagerated erros that are in total opposition to what things should be. You can tell by LOOKING at them they trained very hard under someone unqualified to teach Chinese martial arts, and have perfected every basic alignmental flaw there is to a very high degree.

[Li Ma-Keh]

R.D., I agree to the point that if your posture is incorrect, you will NOT get the total benefit of the exercise, and in some cases could hurt or injure yourself,ie; small of back, knees, ankles, are the most evident, BUT,...there were/are MANY schools, from China, in the old' days especially, with incorrect posture & alignment issues that can still 'kick-butt',...lol. That doesn't mean that it's 'right',....it just shows that , if 'that' was what was passed-on to the student,...that's what will happen in their forms as well. Now',..I NEVER said that Green Dragon had good posture or correct alignment ,(especially in their Internal sets), BUT,.. they can still kick-butt,...lol'. It might not be as' efficient as someone who has trained with perfect posture,..but, I wouldn't want to stand in the way of a punch.kick or fore-arm block. Most of the posture problems look like people who lift-weights alot and over emphisize the 'Yang',..(and they do',..granted). But, EVERYBODY,..has Yin & Yang issues somewhere,..NOBODY is perfect,....it takes TIME to learn all of the correct structures or advanced-changes in joint line-up that has happened over the last thirty years. Don't forget,..if your instructor doesn't know,...or if his instructor 'won't' tell them,..then it won't get passed on. I've seen many 'Masters' of ALL styles,schools and areas that have 'some' gliches'. But, we train to improve and learn. Everything changes in it's own time, so maybe one day? Li Ma-Keh

[ChuangkTzu]

At a Q&A session I was attending (also on the Q&A video tapes), Sifu Allen mentioned having an extensive film library of Master Feeman Ong. Evidently, they had yearly demonstrations, which Allen helped film. He spoke of the huge difference between Ong and the so-called "celebrity masters" on the west coast (Ong being much better).

Li Ma-Keh,

I've enjoyed your take on your GD experience. It sounds like you also first fell
in love with kung-fu through GD. Being an indoor disciple of Sifu Gracenin, I'm
sure you have competed in many tournaments. Being with Sifu Allen for 8 years,
I'm sure you've also witnessed Master Ong perform. I'm curious, in your opinion,
is Sifu Allen's assessment accurate?

How would you compare Master Ong to the celebrity masters of today?

Chuang Tzu

[Li Ma-Keh]

Chang-Tzu, Well, first you have to strip-away the "I witnessed",.from the 'Legendary" stories,...(which may or may-not be true?),....I got to see Master Ong many times , as well as his son & daughters twice,....Master Ong was Very Good at Southern Hand styles, and he was quick as lightning! I witnessed him cutting bamboo rods with a sword,(old clunky' hard sword), that was suspended from strips of Paper, without tearing the paper! I saw the kids' do forms at two different Kung-Fu demos.' ,....the daugthers did Southern style & Stephen did 'modern' Wu-Shu. As I mentioned before,.THEY moved Completely different then the rest of the Kwan Ying Do family,..which led me later-on' to train with Jimmy Yee,(asst.' Coach at Wing-Chun in Chicago),...then Si-Fu Gracenin in '92. Now,...trying to compare Master Ong with 'other' masters,....really each true Master I've witnessed is REALLY good at one or two things ,(which is normal),..and they are all different. I was able to witness Masters'; Chan Tai-San, Madame' Wong Ju-Rong, Chen Xiao-Wang,Bow Sim-Mark,Chang Dang-Shan,He Wei-Chi,...etc.'. Some of them,(including Si-Fu Gracenin), are/were Really good at Several styles ,(keeping the FLAVOR of the style correct!), which is Very hard, because most people in general have a hard time keeping the 'flavor' of the different styles correct! It would be like going to a restaurant, and ordering spagehtti',..& it taste like a cheesburger,...next time you order baked cod & it taste like a cheesburger?,...everything taste the same, even though it is a Master Chef cooking these things,...lol'. Most of us,(including me,..lol), are Happy/Content to get one style to look/move/smell' like it's suppose to,..lol. So, I guess I can't really give a good comparison,...other than than they are ALL better than me,(including the late' Master Ong), ...and I'm no celebraty,..lol'. Li Ma-Keh

[kal]

Due to the blizzard-like conditions that swept through Ohio yesterday, I had
the day off like everybody else. I had some time to dig out some old issues
of Inside Kung-Fu magazine and look for the old Green Dragon ad with the
supposed "doctored" photo. If anybody has the Feb 1988 issue ( Master Chicoine
is on the cover), its obvious the photo in the GD ad containing Chang, Chicoine and Allen, has been altered.

There is an article entitled " Controversy Erupts Over Shuai Chiao Leadership"
in the same issue. The article is written by William Barret and Dave Cater. It
contains many photos of Grandmaster Chang courtesy of Master Chicoine,
Daniel Weng, Bob Sbarge and Eric Sbarge. On page 41, one of the photos
courtesy of Master Chicoine, contains both Chicoine and Chang. You can tell
they took this picture, cut Grandmaster Chang out, and placed him in between
Chicoine and Allen in the GD ad photo.

Check it out. Without a doubt, it's the same picture of Chang in both photographs. I'm not questioning Master Chicoine's credentials or those of Sifu Allen for that matter. In fact, the article makes it pretty clear Master Chicoine is the true successor to Grandmaster Chang. I'm only stating that lkfmdc was right. The photo in the ad was definitely altered.

Chuang Tzu

Thanks for confirming that.

I must admit, I am rather disappointed in the Green Dragon people for doing that.

This has nothing to do with credentials or ability or strength or anything like that.

But altering a photo like that shows a lack of integrity.

[JDK]

Do you guys think that the primary reason for stance training is to strenghten the legs. I think that it is a result but the primary use is to build up ones will or ability to perform through pain.

O.T but just a thought

In Traditional Chinese Martial Arts...Stance Training is essential.

To try and practice forms or learn to move and fight without first laying the Foundation through Stance Training, will yield far less results than intended by the Old Ways.

Like a House...the Pouring of the Footers and Foundation are what the rest of the Home is built upon. If the Foundation is weak, cracked, or done improperly....EVENTUALLY you will see resulting damage to other parts of the House.

Simple example I use when my son ( who can strike hard and take a good punch but refuses any Martial Arts Training)

I demonstrate this to my 17 year old son (Height 6'2.. weight 205) and my Brother ( Height 6'..Weight 245) by having them hold a Body Shield I have, I tell them to brace themselves..and I strike the Shield with my Legs STRAIGHT, using only my arm and waist power. ( I do both hand and Kick strikes)

Then I strike with the exact same intensity with knees bent, body lowered and centered...and the results are dramatic.

*This Was Kinda Funny*

One time I warned my brother, who was standing behind and holding my 60 Pound Heavy Bag suspended from the Ceiling, helping me train...to really brace Himself, because I was going to execute my best front Kick, I had just warmed up for about 30 minutes..and I wanted to do ..well.. I guess the Weighlifting Equivilant of a One Time Maxium Rep Test..before pre-exhasting my Muscles...so ( now remember I warned him twice..and the second time he got annoyed at me and said " Just Kick the **** Bag ...Im braced!!!!!!!

So I did...

Have you ever experienced a particuliar punch or kick where you just hit the sweet spot? ...Got "ALL OF IT"? .....Really got into that one!" I mean timing, Full concenration,my body weight, all my power hitting the Bag at the right second ????

My Weight workout room is a little cramped in that I have the Heavybag about 6 Feet
in front of my Smith Machine and Free weights...I leave the rest of the Basement open for forms, Boxing and my other non-weightlifting workouts..It is usually not a problem.

The Kick knocked him backwards about 7 feet ( one foot too much) and sent him sprawling head over heels into the wall of my Basement (about 15 feet away) after hitting my Smith Machine, Bench Press and some Curl Barls on the Floor.

He was furious!!! I said "Jim...I warned you TWICE and you yelled at me to just kick the !#$@ Bag! Why are you mad at me ? He left my house in a huff
and my son started cracking up after he left and we saw he wasnt hurt just his Pride)

Anyways...here is article by Adam Hsu..he touches on the Importance of Stance Training..

http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/int_adamhsu1.htm

JDK

[JDK]

More comprehensive......

http://www.adamhsu.com/classes/classes.htm

JDK

[Royal Dragon]

I agree on the importance of stance training. Just look at my avatar.

[kal]

Just found this on Amazon. Is this the famous Stone Warrior program that was written about so much by John Allen and Gene Chicoine of Green Dragon Studios?

http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Chines.../dp/B0006A5NTC

I have become rather interested in the Stone Warrior program. I recognise that a gain in strength would be very beneficial, and I was impressed by what I read by John Allen regarding the Stone warrior.

[mickey]

Hi kal,

Same set. This dvd has been out a few years. Sifu John Allen still sells his tapes, by the way. He advertises in IKF.


mickey

[Akronviper]

Same one, I think this guy just copied the GD tape because it is exactly the same. Alot of his tapes look to be GD copies. Just buy a GD one on ebay for less.

[IronWeasel]

I remember that photograph. It's the one where Allen still has a beard, right?

I'll see if I can dig one out of my old magazines.

I recall that in the ad that went with that photo, it said Allen was a 7th degree and Chicoine was a 9th degree.

What were those grades actually in? (SC?) and who awarded them?

I hate dragging up old threads, but I recently happened across the IKF ad that everyone said was doctored up. Then I found the original photo of GM Chang.

[kal]

Check the website:

http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

Loads and loads of videos and DVDs for sale, although the Stone Warrior looks a bit expensive at $100.

[IronWeasel]

Yep. Nice site.

Welcome to the 90's