Permission?

[Brule]

I didn't want to get off topic from ginosifu's thread but his first paragraph got me thinking. I have always wondered why is there this mentality that you need permission to train with other Sifu's. If you say, it's the old school, then i say what about those who learned from various sifu's, ie: CTS as LKFMCDCANDMF has made it known more than once.

Is this simply another thing used to keep the student from seeing what others do with the fear of them having something better? or that these sifu's don't know what they are doing thus wouldn't want to be exposed?

Please help me understand........

[YouKnowWho]

You can learn from any teacher that you want. Your teacher can also stop teaching you whenever he wants. If your wife finds out that you are messing with another women, she will divorce you. It's just that simple.

[David Jamieson]

Coaches like to have their turned out product to be untainted.

In all sports endeavours, coaches prefer if you stay with them and get their stuff before going out and mixing and matching.

It is NOT just sifu that do this.

Crikey, ballet coaches do this, floor gymnastic coaches do this, fencing coaches do it, boxing coaches etc etc.

IN team sports? not such a big deal because each player is a cog, but in individual competition, it is difficult to coach someone who brings back material alien to the curriculum or that turns a positive into a negative by developing a bad habit somewhere else etc etc.

Hence, permission. It's not usually denied unless it is ill advised to train elsewhere.
Besides, it is also respectful and there is nothing wrong with showing respect to your teacher, ever.

[ginosifu]

I didn't want to get off topic from ginosifu's thread but his first paragraph got me thinking. I have always wondered why is there this mentality that you need permission to train with other Sifu's. If you say, it's the old school, then i say what about those who learned from various sifu's, ie: CTS as LKFMCDCANDMF has made it known more than once.

Is this simply another thing used to keep the student from seeing what others do with the fear of them having something better? or that these sifu's don't know what they are doing thus wouldn't want to be exposed?

Please help me understand........

I have trained with multiple Sifu's and I see your point. There are some old school rules of etiquette that most of us modern people just don't understand. Mainly this is a Chinese pride / losing face kinda thing. If you lose face in Asian culture you might as well cut your intestines out right then and there. Chinese people would rather die than lose face of you going to another Sifu. This means that he is not a good Sifu in the publics eye and no one will come to him in the future for training.

modern people are not quite as prideful but it still exists.

ginosifu

[lkfmdc]

You can learn from any teacher that you want. Your teacher can also stop teaching you whenever he wants. If your wife finds out that you are messing with another women, she will divorce you. It's just that simple.

Chang Dung Sheng was married to his Shuai Jiao teacher's daughter wasn't he? YET he still learned other stuff with other people

[ginosifu]

Chang Dung Sheng was married to his Shuai Jiao teacher's daughter wasn't he? YET he still learned other stuff with other people

If I remember correctly he hooked up with a Monk and learned some Shaolin and then learned Tai Chi from some general?? I forgot the whole story

ginosifu

[IronWeasel]

Chang Dung Sheng was married to his Shuai Jiao teacher's daughter wasn't he? YET he still learned other stuff with other people

I was told that Chang's Shuai Chiao teacher ENCOURAGED him to learn from other teachers.

[lkfmdc]

the plot thickens!

[hskwarrior]

through my personal experience, its generally looked down upon within the old community to jump from teacher to teacher. based on conversations with some on this subject, their opinions were its fine if you want to jump from school to school. i just won't get too deep into teaching a person like that. there is a line of respect they hold for those who stayed with their teacher till the end.

with as much cross training thats taking place now, kung fu has to realize this as a fact of life at this time and just hope for the student who wants all the teacher has to teach.

[SPJ]

It is a courtesy to let your teacher know that you will learning from other teacher.

A lot of times, teachers set up the exchange learning of the students. Your teacher recommend you to another teacher.

There were also exchange of hands first. The loser learned from the winner. Such as dong hai chuan in ba gua zhang.

There were also students exchange of stuffs. Teach you A in exchange of learning B from you.

Such as tai chi xing yi and ba gua mingle together.

[MightyB]

It is a courtesy to let your teacher know that you will learning from other teacher.

A lot of times, teachers set up the exchange learning of the students. Your teacher recommend you to another teacher.

There were also exchange of hands first. The loser learned from the winner. Such as dong hai chuan in ba gua zhang.

There were also students exchange of stuffs. Teach you A in exchange of learning B from you.

Such as tai chi xing yi and ba gua mingle together.

The above is close to how it was in my school.

Plus your instructor's probably been around the block and definitely knows the MA personalities in your town. Not only is it a sign of respect to ask - but your Sifu can also help you from making a big mistake. Maybe the guy you're thinking of cross training with has a bad rep - your Sifu would definitely have insight on that if they've been around for awhile.

[Lucas]

I think today if a teacher is going to teach a lot of people and run it like a business then they cant be too hurt if they are treated as a business.

[Mulong]

It is interesting, because cross training did exist and was actually encourage by the shifus; however, it was definitely not endorses in the States for one simple reason; it cut into the shifu’s profit.

Personally, I have studied with varies shifus within the United States and all of them have had more then one shifu; however, they all public stated the most famous one for their resume.

And from time to time my own students had studied with my friends and elders to enhance their skills; remember no one holds all the pieces to the puzzle.

[David Jamieson]

you ever had a style jumper school hopper show up in your club?

they are a pain in the ass.

period.

they know the basics for tis or that, maybe, often not even that, make claim to "knowing" several styles and then proceed to move around like a pregnant yak.

yes, i suppose there are some greedy sifu out there who see it as a financial threat. As far as my experience goes, I know more sifu who have regular jobs than not and do not do it for that reason.

It is courtesy and courtesy isn't a bad thing.

[Mulong]

Actually some were so funny, because they actually thought they were “The Man,” and then concede to our training.

Jamieson, not certain where you exactly trained, but in the major cities it’s about the money. However, the elders had a way around it, by asking you to bring a letter from prior shifu giving you so-called permission to train with someone else; however, at the end it was so ridicules that after a while shifu didn’t care; want counted was the cash.