Permission?

[Darthlawyer]

I could see an instructor wanting a student to hold up for a few safety reasons. In my school, the newer students spar at a safe distance so that their shots won't connect, the intermediate students begin to get closer and work up their speed, so that they can come close to connecting, but "pull" their punches for sparring. In my experience, when you have students who come from different disciplines or who are training at multiple places, they might want to "go" a bit harder than they are actually prepared to spar.

For example, I was sparring an almost brand new student who is about half a foot taller than me (I'm 6 ft even) and considerably more built. Since he had some other training, he felt that he had to spar harder an faster than he was actually capable of controlling hit strikes (compensating for going against someone more experienced). Our sparring got to a point where I had to just bow and take a break because I was having to respond to a level where I was almost fighting rather than sparring. I felt confident that I could have defended myself, but defending myself to a level where fighters can likely get injured isn't what sparring is all about.

I think folks who are training in multiple locations would be tempted to try to "show off" when sparring with other students, in a "I know this much more than you" kinda way, without necessarily having the same amount of experience and control.

Now, I think a high percentage of students of traditional martial arts are capable of keeping a level head, but I would understand a teacher wanting to have a student focus on just one discipline at least until the teacher knew the student a little better. If a student gets hurt, most teachers would lose 2 students: the one who is out due to an injury, and the one who lacks control so that he is a danger to the other students.

So, I think asking for permission is appropriate, but I also think that permission should not be unreasonably withheld. If a teacher has an absolute prohibition against learning other styles, I'd be concerned that they really aren't confident in their teaching ability/material/students to have them compete against other arts.

[ginosifu]

Brule:

Getting permission is not asking your Sifu and hoping he will let go train with someone else.

It is sitting down and talking with your Sifu daily, and looking at your long term goals. It was a good 7-8 years before I told my Northern Shaolin Sifu that I wanted to train Monkey with a different teacher. He told me the ups and downs of training with multiplr teachers, He told me he had the same conversation with his Sifu.

His Sifu (Kwong Wing Lam) studied several styles like Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar and Sun Tai Chi. My Sifu (John Ervin) has studied Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, 7 Star Mantis and Shuai Chiao.

I myself still am a student of Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Angry Monkey and Shaui Chiao. I don't think it is wrong to cross train. I think it is a very good idea, however, be respectful and sit down with your current teacher and see what thoughts they have about cross training.

One thing I will let you know is that jumping around from style to style makes you a Jack of all Trades and a master of None. Spend a good amount of time in a style before you move on to something else.

ginosifu

[-N-]

One thing I will let you know is that jumping around from style to style makes you a Jack of all Trades and a master of None. Spend a good amount of time in a style before you move on to something else.

+1

Etiquette and eveything else aside, that is the practical reason why teachers don't want students to learn from others too soon.

No one wants to waste time with clueless know-it-all noobs that don't want to put in real effort.

[Mulong]

Indeed, you have individuals, who jump from style looking for the magic formula; however, they are individuals, who want to grow within their respective discipline and sadly realize that their shifu isn’t able to assist them on their personal sojourn in the CMA; therefore, what should this individual do?

[-N-]

Indeed, you have individuals, who jump from style looking for the magic formula; however, they are individuals, who want to grow within their respective discipline and sadly realize that their shifu isn’t able to assist them on their personal sojourn in the CMA; therefore, what should this individual do?

Be polite and thank the teacher for everything he's done for you, and tell him you want to move on.

Just make sure you're not the guy in this story...

Actually that reminds me of a story where he was betrayed and attacked by one of his own students. During the fight, he was about to blind the student with an eye attack. But he changed changed his move as he made contact, and used his fingertips to close the student's eyelids.

He should just sent another student (or students) to do that job instead of having to do it himself.

Kind of hard to do that if the guy just comes up to you saying that you have nothing left to teach him, and just outright attacks you.

[ginosifu]

Indeed, you have individuals, who jump from style looking for the magic formula; however, they are individuals, who want to grow within their respective discipline and sadly realize that their shifu isn’t able to assist them on their personal sojourn in the CMA; therefore, what should this individual do?

If you are not happy or are receiving the type of training or the Sifu can't give you what you want, then yes you should leave. However, we all should be talking with our Sifu's about our goals, needs and things that are important on a daily basis. A good Sifu can aid in your CMA journey, they can lead you to the right CMA Sifu, they can also give you introductions.

If you keep a good talking relationship with your Sifu, things should not get to that point of you feeling bad. There is no reason to stay with someone that can not help you reach your CMA goals. However, there is no reason not to be respectful.

ginosifu

[Brule]

I'm not saying about just leaving to train somewhere else, of course common courtesy applies. Just the whole "permission" thing annoys me and some just keep this silly tradition just for the sake of keeping a tradition.

[lance]

I didn't want to get off topic from ginosifu's thread but his first paragraph got me thinking. I have always wondered why is there this mentality that you need permission to train with other Sifu's. If you say, it's the old school, then i say what about those who learned from various sifu's, ie: CTS as LKFMCDCANDMF has made it known more than once.

Is this simply another thing used to keep the student from seeing what others do with the fear of them having something better? or that these sifu's don't know what they are doing thus wouldn't want to be exposed?

Please help me understand........

Brule , example you ' re learning from a sifu now , and you ' re asking your current sifu now , if you can train with other sifus too , he might accept it or he might not accept it at all .

Because if you train with other sifus without permission from your current sifu then , it ' s like the sifu you ' re training with now , is stealing you as a student from your current sifu , that ' s why . I went through this too in Hawaii where I ' m
from . But it ' s up to the sifu you ' re training with now . So that ' s why to learn from other sifus in general you might have to quit the learning from the sifu
you ' re currently from now , to learn from other sifus in general .

Because without permission from your current sifu , then he might have a talk with the other sifu you ' re from too . So it ' s just plain martial arts ettiquecy for you as a student too . And yes , the sifus will think that way too towards you as a student , that the other sifu you want to train under is better than your current sifu you were learning from before . If you understand what I mean .

In other words it ' s like you ' re currently dating a girl now , and without asking you to break up with her , she goes her on way into going out with another guy , and you happen to see it happening and you get upset and you confront the girl and the guy she ' s going out with . You ' ll think that the girl the girl who did things behind your back went with this guy because he ' s better than you .
The same way the sifus would think .

So the best thing to do is learn all you can from your current sifu first depend on what style of kung fu you ' re learning , some styles of kung fu have a certain number of sets you need to learn to get ahead . But learn all the priority things first , before you end up quiting the training under your current sifu first . Then from there , you can learn something new with your new sifu . This is just my own opinion towards your topic thread . But make sure that you keep on practicing what you really learned from your current sifu , as you go on learning new materials from your next sifu in general .

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I believe that you are making too many assumptions about "fools" who "follow the barking orders".

First of all, there is a question of etiquette. A person who is considering training with another sifu, should at least pass it by his own sifu.

Secondly. People can't just run along and train or cross train in anything they wish. Presumably if you are training a TCMA, you are doing so with an expert. It is always good to ask their opinion about what you intend to train in, because there are cases where people seek to train in another style that has contradictory principles and concepts to the style they are currently training. So, if they have not got their core style into their "veins", then such cross training can result in the unnecessarily hindering of their progress.

Of course, this is no problem for people who are ignorant of a given TCMA style's body unity, rooting, etc. principles to start with, and are happy to treat any "kung fu" training as a type of glorified kickboxing.


It is never too late to learn manners!



You are making a huge assumption. You can't just run along and cross train in anything you wish if you are practicing a given TCMA style. Asking your sifu, may even result in him recommending you to cross train one style, as opposed to another, as that style will be complimentary to the core style you are training with him.

Moral of the story is that etiquette can be beneficial to personal evolution.

LMAO, this coming from a guy with two years of training who's own Sifu called him a wack job!! Sorry if I don't listen to your "expert" opinion.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by -N-
Actually that reminds me of a story where he was betrayed and attacked by one of his own students. During the fight, he was about to blind the student with an eye attack. But he changed changed his move as he made contact, and used his fingertips to close the student's eyelids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
He should just sent another student (or students) to do that job instead of having to do it himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -N-
Kind of hard to do that if the guy just comes up to you saying that you have nothing left to teach him, and just outright attacks you.

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This is why you should never teach your students the counters for your "door guarding moves". I had 7 of my own students challenged me in the past. To hide something from your students is serious matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have n ever had any teacher tel lme not to train with others, of course I have always made it clear WHY I did and the majority of times it was to "cross-test" rather than cross train per say.
To a man they all said pretty much the same thing:
Don't forget to share what you have learned with your brothers.
I always did.

[ShaolinDan]

I don't know... I guess I think a teacher's goal should be to produce students who are better than he/she is. Otherwise the art can only degrade. Not that secrets should be given to everyone, but some students should be getting everything.

As for the thread topic: Ask for permission, just because it's polite.

[SimonM]

When I went to China I discussed at length with my sifu some of the martial arts that he did not know which I intended to study.

He had no problem with that.

He also encouraged cross-training in JJ, boxing, fencing, etc.

[ShaolinDan]

My teacher has trained with several different teachers, but he did get permission first.
I'm sure he will let me train elsewhere if/when I want to, but I'll still ask permission. Whether or not you want to follow this rule is may be about a larger question--do you just want the fighting methods, or do you want the 'trappings' too? Permission is one of the 'trappings.' The 'trappings' contain a lot of what I want from my MA practice, but if your only concern is combat, then many of them may be discarded.

[bawang]

only stupid cantonese ask for permission. real men do whatever they want.