Lets at least agree what sparriing IS....

[Graham H]

Not so much looking at the techniques but the intent.

So ill bite G and Joy........... how would WC sparring differ?

Glen we dont spar in tents!

[GlennR]

Glen we dont spar in tents!

From what i hear you spar in a dress..... ya knob

[GlennR]

Hi Glenn- this is what I wrote on the other thread about sparring.
("Spar" has become a word game with variable meanings on this and related threads. If spar means wearing gloves and maybe wearing a head guard and bouncing around- been there done that. I still have gloves around and spar for fun.

Fair enough

But wing chun version of contact work speeds up learning wing chun's approach to self defense faster.

Yes it does. To a point

As my kung fu brother has pointed out generally we don't spar
in class

-

Fair enough again, thats your approach

but we do various kinds of chi sao (gasp).

The gasp is somewhat patronising Joy. Youre not the only one that does that, ive done mainland a TST WC so ive had comprehensive exposure to 2 schools of thought.

I think the chi sao is also a word- what we do in chi sao is different from other chi sao that I have seen. It's not just sensitivity-- it is also learning and using and experimenting--(a lab) with different kinds of power, timing, distance, not being stuck, positioning, opening, finding, closing lines , targeting, controlling, integrating footwork, separating, closing, lots of footwork and lots pf other things . When class is over some folks on their own stick around and if they wish, square off with baijong and can go at it with controls.

Yep, same same

Some of the students have entered tournaments not for cups and medals but to gain experience.

Cool, i can relate to that. Some just like to fight as well.

Training for competition involves supplementation knowing the rules and more intense conditioning. One of my current students- a top flight grappler and striker has mixed it up quite well in competition and also a good mma(gasp) club. He has worn gloves for specific events and I have worked with him with gloves.

All power to him

On this thread folks often play the same old word games.

Sure, i think we are all guilty of that at some stage.

But i go back to the original clip i posted Joy, put one of your guys in there instead of the 2 in there now...... how do you fare against the big leg kicks, the hooks, grappling, footwork if all youve done is WC on WC specific drills?
How do you know what will or wont work if you havent trialled it??

ie, no sparring experience

You mention the fighter you have (mma guy) but whilst he does some WC with you, his base is grappling..... he would have done a ton of sparring

[Graham H]

From what i hear you spar in a dress..... ya knob

Well all the idiots do say WC was created by a woman!

GH


PS. Ya c**t!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1128116]Fair enough






The gasp is somewhat patronising Joy. Youre not the only one that does that, ive done mainland a TST WC so ive had comprehensive exposure to 2 schools of thought.

((Not my intention to be patronising. The intended context was the claims of some that chi sao is
superfluous since there is "sparring"))








But i go back to the original clip i posted Joy, put one of your guys in there instead of the 2 in there now...... how do you fare against the big leg kicks, the hooks, grappling, footwork if all youve done is WC on WC specific drills?

((WC was not intended just to deal with other wc..My POV and practice involves considerable attention to structure, footwork and understanding the role of gravity, The clips show poor wc structure IMO of course- but props that they got into the ring to face someone))


How do you know what will or wont work if you havent trialled it??

((Have experimented with kickers, grapplers and both southpaw and "northpaw?" strikers- enough to know the wc game))


joy

[n.mitch]

i agree mate , most sparring looks similar , unless its organised ie one person attacks one counters , you might use this type of sparring to help a person with his timing or work on specific things. if people use wing chun conceps and adapt it to sparring it will look similar, i have met people that call chi sao sparring though lol, each to there own, its good to do both

[GlennR]

i agree mate , most sparring looks similar , unless its organised ie one person attacks one counters , you might use this type of sparring to help a person with his timing or work on specific things. if people use wing chun conceps and adapt it to sparring it will look similar, i have met people that call chi sao sparring though lol, each to there own, its good to do both

Hi Nath
Yep, it all looks fairly similar at once sparring... the discerning eye can pick the different stylists style.. but to a layperson it all looks the same.

And whilst a "hard" chi-sao session can be a bit kknock about and taxing, it just doesnt represent the mayhem of fighting... only sparring can

But, to each their own!

ps. got smashed in sparring last night and can barely walk today... maybe the non-sparring way has merit

[HumbleWCGuy]

There may not be a perfect definition for sparring, but I can say with certainty that sparring does not always have to be full-contact. Moreover, sparring can be to simulate competition. The hope in any school is that your student's have the opportunity to experience a competition-level sparring session before their first real competition. I can say with absolute certainty that hard and light sparring is necessary for fighters to grow.

Basically, sparring is anytime two people engage each other and are free to use any tactic within the confines of safety rules strictly for learning purposes. If the rules are very restrictive, to the point of only allowing one or two strikes (e.g. jab, cross) it is drilling. Now all sparring is drilling, but not all drilling is sparring.

[Wayfaring]

It's hard to agree definitively on definitions for "sparring" and "drilling".

Most basically, drilling would involve restricting free movement and focusing on a particular scenario. Ideally this scenario would be a cross-section of a realistic fight.

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

If people are doing that, it represents a baseline of training for fight scenarios. If they are not, it does not.

As far as all the other variables involved, I'd just say it's good to become familiar with them. Encourage expanding horizons rather than becoming pedantic about instisting on some of them. Things like:

1) Gloves - various sizes - 4oz MMA, 12-16oz boxing, bag gloves, even just driving or weightlifting gloves. How do these affect movement? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these? Same with feet - spar with shin pads? Without? Allow foot attacks in sparring?

2) Time - meaning timed rounds. How long can you spar? At what pace? Do you have a timer that you can set for a length of round? For intervals between rounds? 3 min rounds? 4, 5, 6, 10? What changes with respect to needs for each of those? Can you configure your sparring to help your athletic conditioning by charting out numbers of rounds, time, and time of rest intervals?

3) Ring - what types of rings or arenas do you spar in? Open grass field with nothing around? A forest with trees? Urban? Basketball court with chain link? A boxing ring? A MMA cage? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these environments?

(Now the only caveat I'll make about this factor is that many MA schools seem to have mirrors all over the place. That's not extremely safe for exploring completely free unrestricted movement. If you can, cut your mirror space in half and put up wall padding in the half you removed as a compromise.)

4) Opponents - beginner, intermediate, advanced? What about weight classes? What adjustments do you make fighting up a weight class or down? How about up a skill level or down? Can you work with a pro fighter and keep calm and contained? Be a good sparring partner? How about a beginner?

5) Competition - most of the world is not at war with hand to hand combat being the only option. Thus the approximation a civil society makes to train towards that goal is athletic based competitions. What competitions are around your area? Striking? Wrestling? Submission wrestling? MMA - amateur or pro? San da? Chi sau? What competitions could you consider training yourself or your club for? What rules do they have? What adjustments to make? How about cost? Travel? Some people don't like to compete. Others do. Many that do talk about the benefits of testing themselves, seeing truly their areas of strength and weakness, and having a definitive goal to prepare for. One key area in preparing for competition is to spend time preparing for competing safely - go over specific strategies and training for how to remain safe and healthy in competition. If yourself or teammates do sustain injuries spend time ensuring that your next preparation time helps prevent those specific injuries or scenarios.

All of those elements are GOOD. Not BAD. They help reduce the ego and increase the skillsets. They help a martial artist become stronger, more technical and more healthy. Sure there are people out there that don't approach them this way. But they are the distortion - don't let them affect you. Push on and build yourself. This is the martial way.

[GlennR]

It's hard to agree definitively on definitions for "sparring" and "drilling".

Most basically, drilling would involve restricting free movement and focusing on a particular scenario. Ideally this scenario would be a cross-section of a realistic fight.

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

If people are doing that, it represents a baseline of training for fight scenarios. If they are not, it does not.

As far as all the other variables involved, I'd just say it's good to become familiar with them. Encourage expanding horizons rather than becoming pedantic about instisting on some of them. Things like:

1) Gloves - various sizes - 4oz MMA, 12-16oz boxing, bag gloves, even just driving or weightlifting gloves. How do these affect movement? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these? Same with feet - spar with shin pads? Without? Allow foot attacks in sparring?

2) Time - meaning timed rounds. How long can you spar? At what pace? Do you have a timer that you can set for a length of round? For intervals between rounds? 3 min rounds? 4, 5, 6, 10? What changes with respect to needs for each of those? Can you configure your sparring to help your athletic conditioning by charting out numbers of rounds, time, and time of rest intervals?

3) Ring - what types of rings or arenas do you spar in? Open grass field with nothing around? A forest with trees? Urban? Basketball court with chain link? A boxing ring? A MMA cage? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these environments?

(Now the only caveat I'll make about this factor is that many MA schools seem to have mirrors all over the place. That's not extremely safe for exploring completely free unrestricted movement. If you can, cut your mirror space in half and put up wall padding in the half you removed as a compromise.)

4) Opponents - beginner, intermediate, advanced? What about weight classes? What adjustments do you make fighting up a weight class or down? How about up a skill level or down? Can you work with a pro fighter and keep calm and contained? Be a good sparring partner? How about a beginner?

5) Competition - most of the world is not at war with hand to hand combat being the only option. Thus the approximation a civil society makes to train towards that goal is athletic based competitions. What competitions are around your area? Striking? Wrestling? Submission wrestling? MMA - amateur or pro? San da? Chi sau? What competitions could you consider training yourself or your club for? What rules do they have? What adjustments to make? How about cost? Travel? Some people don't like to compete. Others do. Many that do talk about the benefits of testing themselves, seeing truly their areas of strength and weakness, and having a definitive goal to prepare for. One key area in preparing for competition is to spend time preparing for competing safely - go over specific strategies and training for how to remain safe and healthy in competition. If yourself or teammates do sustain injuries spend time ensuring that your next preparation time helps prevent those specific injuries or scenarios.

All of those elements are GOOD. Not BAD. They help reduce the ego and increase the skillsets. They help a martial artist become stronger, more technical and more healthy. Sure there are people out there that don't approach them this way. But they are the distortion - don't let them affect you. Push on and build yourself. This is the martial way.

Excellent Post WF..... your description of sparring was spot on

[WC1277]

It's hard to agree definitively on definitions for "sparring" and "drilling".

Most basically, drilling would involve restricting free movement and focusing on a particular scenario. Ideally this scenario would be a cross-section of a realistic fight.

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

If people are doing that, it represents a baseline of training for fight scenarios. If they are not, it does not.

As far as all the other variables involved, I'd just say it's good to become familiar with them. Encourage expanding horizons rather than becoming pedantic about instisting on some of them. Things like:

1) Gloves - various sizes - 4oz MMA, 12-16oz boxing, bag gloves, even just driving or weightlifting gloves. How do these affect movement? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these? Same with feet - spar with shin pads? Without? Allow foot attacks in sparring?

2) Time - meaning timed rounds. How long can you spar? At what pace? Do you have a timer that you can set for a length of round? For intervals between rounds? 3 min rounds? 4, 5, 6, 10? What changes with respect to needs for each of those? Can you configure your sparring to help your athletic conditioning by charting out numbers of rounds, time, and time of rest intervals?

3) Ring - what types of rings or arenas do you spar in? Open grass field with nothing around? A forest with trees? Urban? Basketball court with chain link? A boxing ring? A MMA cage? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these environments?

(Now the only caveat I'll make about this factor is that many MA schools seem to have mirrors all over the place. That's not extremely safe for exploring completely free unrestricted movement. If you can, cut your mirror space in half and put up wall padding in the half you removed as a compromise.)

4) Opponents - beginner, intermediate, advanced? What about weight classes? What adjustments do you make fighting up a weight class or down? How about up a skill level or down? Can you work with a pro fighter and keep calm and contained? Be a good sparring partner? How about a beginner?

5) Competition - most of the world is not at war with hand to hand combat being the only option. Thus the approximation a civil society makes to train towards that goal is athletic based competitions. What competitions are around your area? Striking? Wrestling? Submission wrestling? MMA - amateur or pro? San da? Chi sau? What competitions could you consider training yourself or your club for? What rules do they have? What adjustments to make? How about cost? Travel? Some people don't like to compete. Others do. Many that do talk about the benefits of testing themselves, seeing truly their areas of strength and weakness, and having a definitive goal to prepare for. One key area in preparing for competition is to spend time preparing for competing safely - go over specific strategies and training for how to remain safe and healthy in competition. If yourself or teammates do sustain injuries spend time ensuring that your next preparation time helps prevent those specific injuries or scenarios.

All of those elements are GOOD. Not BAD. They help reduce the ego and increase the skillsets. They help a martial artist become stronger, more technical and more healthy. Sure there are people out there that don't approach them this way. But they are the distortion - don't let them affect you. Push on and build yourself. This is the martial way.

No, that is the MMA way. MMA is the distortion and the actual small slice of the pie that just happens to be the 'in' thing right now. And I have met more c0cky MMA fighters than style specific fighters hands down, especially when they start winning! I mean come on, have you seen their clothing lines!? Low ego!? Ha!

But then again, WC guys are no better........ a clothing line would be cool....

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1127440]Morning Folks

As the sparring thread has fallen into a name calling slag fest, id suggest we get a bit of context back into it by atleast agreeing what sparring IS

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Glenn- I don't see a universally valid meaning for "sparring" except a very generalized
and insufficiently helpful lift from a dictionary.
The empirical meaning is likely to vary with styles and substyles and lineages.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1128455]

Morning Folks

As the sparring thread has fallen into a name calling slag fest, id suggest we get a bit of context back into it by atleast agreeing what sparring IS

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Glenn- I don't see a universally valid meaning for "sparring" except a very generalized
and insufficiently helpful lift from a dictionary.
The empirical meaning is likely to vary with styles and substyles and lineages.

joy chaudhuri

Actually Joy.... i think this is a percect description from Wayfaring

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

Keep in mind, unrestricted would pertain to your style, youd use what you have been taught.

Surely thats an appropriate description of what sparring (not drilling ) should be

[GlennR]

No, that is the MMA way. MMA is the distortion and the actual small slice of the pie that just happens to be the 'in' thing right now. And I have met more c0cky MMA fighters than style specific fighters hands down, especially when they start winning! I mean come on, have you seen their clothing lines!? Low ego!? Ha!

But then again, WC guys are no better........ a clothing line would be cool....

No, its not the exclusive MMA way............ its fighting.

And its got nothing to do about ****iness, people that spar or fight a lot quickly lose their egos. They have to as everyone gets hit

And while i may agree on the clothing lines, silk pyjamas are hardly the high point of fashion.

Look, the simple point is that if you walked into an MMA/boxing/MT gym and sparred you'd be murdered, and if one of those guys walked into your gym youd get murdered again.
You just havent done the hard yards to match it with those guys

[Wayfaring]

No, that is the MMA way. MMA is the distortion and the actual small slice of the pie that just happens to be the 'in' thing right now. And I have met more c0cky MMA fighters than style specific fighters hands down, especially when they start winning! I mean come on, have you seen their clothing lines!? Low ego!? Ha!

But then again, WC guys are no better........ a clothing line would be cool....

You guys are about as obtuse as they come. This isn't mma it's universal. You reject all this because some mma fighters are ****y? Grow up and get some objectivity.