The link ?

[Matthew]

Also I am interested in the Full arm extensions in punches that Shi De Yang and others are often seen doing- which does not appear in ChanWuYi practice of Shi De Jian nor Wu Nan Fang.

In one documentary (either of WuNanFang or Shi De Jian) they note that they do not punc with arms fully extended at all. In my travels I have met a monk who taught me a similar thing from what he seemed to note as 2 significant points- 1 was that there is a loss in connection to the hand and 2 that your arm will be easily broken.

In fact, In the link I posted from a youtube video translation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X9opF8MCiE
Shi De Jian explicates a little bit on this Full Arm length thing. I believe it may have a legitimate connection to Qi Flow in one way or another- but I am far from developed enough of a practitioner to know this for a fact.

If there's interest I'd also be willing to look through the videos I have from Youtube/Chinese sites for the documentary bit that mentions how the "punch" is done in "Wugulun gong fu" or Shi De Jian's ChanWuYi lineage.

[RenDaHai]

To Rendahai,

Hi Rendahai this is Eugene with a diff nick,

I was wondering about you could demonstrate 3 kinds of xiaohongquan,

Do you mean that you use 3 kinds of lyrics ? Or 3 types of styles ? wugulun, regular and another one ?

Its just that for example, when you hold or embrace the moon at chest level as to number 2, its hard to imagine for me that there are 3 ways of doing that stance.. maybe in stances, but still you have to hold or embrace the moon, and it would be seenable lol.

I still wonder about your xiaohongquan, as it is not to see on internet.
btw, you never use dingbu s in your xiao training right ?

Much Greetings XiaoHong

Hey Eugene,

What I meant before is I could do exactly the same xiao hong quan, with the same lyrics, but I could perform it the first time focusing on ZhengQue clean movements, the second on ShenFa body mechanics and the third on BaoFaLi explosive power. Although an identical set of movements it would look so different that it would be hard for some people to even see it is the same form.

If I can do this it is easy to see how the differences come about between lineages.

My XHQ does contain Ding Bu, Shrinking the body is Ding bu. ALthough one must note that ding bu is simply the smallest possible Xubu. Contrary to modern wushu the lower a Xubu is the closer the feet are together until at maximum depth DingBu appears. What is important is the orientation of the hips. Square or sideways. (or 45 as in some sects).

Typically Embrace the Moon is done lower than Chest level. Their are variations depending on your reason for doing this stance, but it does not appear in the XHQs of the other sects.

I have lived here a long time and I have made it a mission to explore as much about XiaoHOngQuan as possible since it is the MuQuan mother fist of Shaolin.

In terms of Xiyuanpai XHQ I have learned it more than 10 times so I have a lot of Variations.

Second to this I have learned the Nanyuan XHQ, also the Mogou Pai XHQ and the LuoTuoYuan XHQ. SO I could demonstrate 4 completely different XHQ in terms of Lyrics. Also Er lu XHQ etc.

To be really caled Shaolin the major variations are XHQ their are the following forms; Xiyuan XHQ 1,2,3,4 Nanyuan XHQ 1,2,3,4 Mogou XHQ 1, Luotuoyuan XHQ 1 and I beleive 1 more in Gansu province. The Nanyuan lineage seperates from Shaolin Temple 360 years ago and the Mogou lineage closer to 500 Years ago. Comparing these with the current XHQ is fascinating.

But I digress......

[LFJ]

From my reading- the ChanWuYi book by Agnes Chan (with writing help from Shi De Jian) does not make mention of Wu Gu Lun as the founder of it. Infact at the link I provided in last post- it does not even mention it by the name of "Wu Gulun Gong Fu." I think it may be simply a marketing tool for Wu Nan Fang's academy. As it is called by Shi De Jian and the official lineage paper (seen at the link in my previous post) it is simply called Shaolin Temple (Yonghuatong branch) ChanWuYi and it recognizes many in the lineage Prior to Wu gulun (Ji Qin).

Yes, Shi Dejian is often called the 18th generation heir to Shaolinsi Yonghuatang Chanwuyi from Shi Zhengdao, but he's also named as the 4th generation heir from Wu Gulun in the same lineage.

So why would Wu Gulun be named as another starting point if he did not make a significant contribution to the art? I'm not saying he founded a new style of course. They do many of the common Nanyuan sets. But he must have made such a significant contribution to the development of Xinyiba and their distinct way of performing their sets, that he is now considered a 1st generation master of the system in their lineage.

[RenDaHai]

Yes, Shi Dejian is often called the 18th generation heir to Shaolinsi Yonghuatang Chanwuyi from Shi Zhengdao, but he's also named as the 4th generation heir from Wu Gulun in the same lineage.

So why would Wu Gulun be named as another starting point if he did not make a significant contribution to the art? I'm not saying he founded a new style of course. They do many of the common Nanyuan sets. But he must have made such a significant contribution to the development of Xinyiba and their distinct way of performing their sets, that he is now considered a 1st generation master of the system in their lineage.

THis is an interesting question. In My travels to the North west of Shaolin (the Road towards Luoyang) I have encountered people of this lineage, but not usually referred to as Wugulun pai. But there are many people with this name. ALso I beleive there was another man named WuGuLun this century who also practiced this style. SO many its very confusing. Many people think I am reffering to this younger Wugulun when I mention the name. Apparently his KungFu was awesome.

Whenever I ask about this style I usually refer to WuShanLin. He had many disciples and is more well known. Wushanlin is also a name that also has several famous people connected with it, so it is very difficult to know whats going on.

ALso XinYiBa has been Somewhat Hijacked by Dejian... I'm sure his XinYiBa is excellent, but it is one of many that exist in Shaolin and the surrounding areas and not unique to his style.

[rett]

Perhaps rett could give us some insight

I'm learning from you guys. Interesting thread, thanks everyone

[rett]

THis is an interesting question. In My travels to the North west of Shaolin (the Road towards Luoyang) I have encountered people of this lineage, but not usually referred to as Wugulun pai.

Is this in the mountains or on the plains on the other side?

[RenDaHai]

Is this in the mountains or on the plains on the other side?

Both. Wushanlin had a lot of disciples.

[XiaoHong]

Thx for your anwser Rendahai,

Cool that you can learn so much there.

I also want to know as much about Xiaohongquan as possible, only am not as lucky as you to travel all around China, maybe someday I wlll.

Can you watch you tube yet ?

here is a monk doing Xiao Hong, a new video to me, ( from 5:40)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqnS9...D0E4CD748DFD58

Peace Eugene

[XiaoHong]

btw, this monk I mentioned, I think his name is Chi de Chao..

[Royal Dragon]

an except with english subtitles can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X9opF8MCiE

Also the 'Wugulun' lineage does not practice punches in the way we see most performed with full arm extension and horizontally. Their punch is taught as he demonstrates the two-arm extension there (obviously with one arm doing the motion though).

He's not doing a punch here. This is a take down move called a "Plow Hammer". Both arms will extend (not fully though) to allow for the expansion of the dantien during the power issuing that knocks them over.

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, Shi Dejian is often called the 18th generation heir to Shaolinsi Yonghuatang Chanwuyi from Shi Zhengdao, but he's also named as the 4th generation heir from Wu Gulun in the same lineage.

So why would Wu Gulun be named as another starting point if he did not make a significant contribution to the art? I'm not saying he founded a new style of course. They do many of the common Nanyuan sets. But he must have made such a significant contribution to the development of Xinyiba and their distinct way of performing their sets, that he is now considered a 1st generation master of the system in their lineage.

Because he was the first generation of that specific lineage to teach outside the temple walls. It's no more complicated than that.

[Matthew]

He's not doing a punch here. This is a take down move called a "Plow Hammer". Both arms will extend (not fully though) to allow for the expansion of the dantien during the power issuing that knocks them over.

Hey Royal Dragon,

I found it interesting that instead of punches, where the hand is horizontally flattened and released as a more or less external strike single point energy release, Shi De Jian's lineage, (according to RenDaHai) greater Nanyuan pai, and traditional schools do not often practice the punches. In the case of Shi De Jian and Wugulun there are no punches in their styles- and there is even a video from one of them noting that the [hammer fist] is the real way of punching.

I had found a brief discussion on the technique here:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...t=55505&page=5

Note:

In a lot of the more traditional schools the vast majority of strikes are done this way. Its generally referred to as a hammer. Its kind of like doing a downwards hammer fist but using it in all directions. Its not with the 'pinky' but with edge of the hand and parts of the palm. Its generally quite blunt. If you get it right you can hit a rough brick wall full power without hurting yourself, which you can't do with an ordinary fist. Generally used in powerful movements. Can strike anywhere.

If you watch more of Wugulun schools videos (dejian, wunanfang etc) you will see they almost never use a fist, they nearly always use this type of hammer, even on 'straight' punches.

By extension- the more takedown-esque nature of it aligns with their said practice of non-violence.

A Fist is more so a direct violent outburst aimed at direct physical damage to their body whereas a takedown, redirection, or dissolving of the opponents energy is more a method to diffuse the attacker's aggression.
Not to hurt them, but to show them forgiveness (which would be hard to do in striking them). "It is very harmonious and natural" according to Wu Nan Fang to practice in this manner.

I personally believe this aligns with the greater point of practicing Kung Fu in it's buddhist context.

Edit:
I also believe the fully extended comment Shi De Jian makes may refer more to a vulnerability by extending your arm so wide open. Even if you leave some bend in it. Perhaps someone like RenDaHai could go ask WuNanFang or Shi De Jian for us XD

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hey Royal Dragon,

I found it interesting that instead of punches, where the hand is horizontally flattened and released as a more or less external strike single point energy release, Shi De Jian's lineage, (according to RenDaHai) greater Nanyuan pai, and traditional schools do not often practice the punches. In the case of Shi De Jian and Wugulun there are no punches in their styles- and there is even a video from one of them noting that the [hammer fist] is the real way of punching.

I had found a brief discussion on the technique here:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...t=55505&page=5

Note:



By extension- the more takedown-esque nature of it aligns with their said practice of non-violence.

A Fist is more so a direct violent outburst aimed at direct physical damage to their body whereas a takedown, redirection, or dissolving of the opponents energy is more a method to diffuse the attacker's aggression.
Not to hurt them, but to show them forgiveness (which would be hard to do in striking them). "It is very harmonious and natural" according to Wu Nan Fang to practice in this manner.

I personally believe this aligns with the greater point of practicing Kung Fu in it's buddhist context.

Edit:
I also believe the fully extended comment Shi De Jian makes may refer more to a vulnerability by extending your arm so wide open. Even if you leave some bend in it. Perhaps someone like RenDaHai could go ask WuNanFang or Shi De Jian for us XD

One also has to consider Shaolin's core long fist came from the military when Zhao Kuang Yin sent his General's there to document thier arts. So with that consideration, breaking the opponent actually is the original way of things.

It may not be the Shaolin way, but you have to wonder where they got the idea that punching trees full forc, as being a good idea, came from. I submit those skills were originally reflective of the true nature of these arts, before Shaolin "Pacified" them.

So the right way to punch, is going to be based on what time period you are looking at, and if your focus is on Shaolin philosophy, or the philosophy of the art's origin.


As for all the take down apps, that actually makes sens in a battle field context, especially if armor was being worn. If the opponent was off of his feet, that bought you time to apply crippling actions to his joints, like stepping on ankles with your full body weight or pulling a boot knife to finish them by poking it into a soft spot not protected.

These actions are well preserved in non Shaolin systems that exist outside of China, like Kuntao Silat. The arts that migrated there were not tempered by moral constrictions of temple life.

I'll submit, even in armed encounters, if one got inside the weapon range, a take down is the fastest way to neutralize the threat of the weapon. One cannot fight, while one is in free fall.

I think all the take downs were the original use.

[RenDaHai]

Hey team,


I will have to apologise and recount some of my earlier comments from another thread.

The hammer method of striking is one I have learned in many schools, but I actually can't say for certain if they use this method in Wugulun Pai. It LOOKS like it in the videos, but since I don't have as much experience with Wugulun pai I cannot say for certain. Some people also do this move but still hit with the knuckles, they just do so in an arcing motion instead of straight out. They may well do this instead.

@Matt, unfortunately it is not so easy to just walk into a school and ask the teacher.... And despite walking through SanHuangZhai many times I have yet to meet Shi DeJian.

With the straight arm thing.... Few people lock the arm out completely when striking, it is more vulnerable so even a hard block can damage it. But saying that if you don't extend enough a punch will do little damage. Too bent and it doesn't retain structure and absorbs too much of the force it wants to give out. Its a fine balance. Every technique is a balance of risk and reward. The general Character of the Shaolin style is to use bold moves, fast and powerful.

[Matthew]

@Matt, unfortunately it is not so easy to just walk into a school and ask the teacher.... And despite walking through SanHuangZhai many times I have yet to meet Shi DeJian.

I suppose I forgot about the whole lineage respect- thing. That's cool about the San Huang zhai visits you've made, judging by the videos I've seen- the view from any of those mountains there looks to be absolutely breathtaking!

Also- while a single video is not telling in any complete aspect- WuNan Fang can be seen using a hammer fist-esque for a take down at ~ 31 Minutes. Either that or it is the hammer fist that comes out of the classical shaolin form closing. http://vimeo.com/18911353

(I believe there is also in one of these videos somewhere a comment by either Shi De Jian/WuNanFang/their student that it is 'the true way of punching' to paraphrase- I will try to find that clip though and as of now I do not know where I remember seeing it as my collection of Shi De Jian and Wu Nan Fang clips probably make up my largest of my martial arts folders of saved videos on my computer.)