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Thread: This is Pak Mei Master Simon Lui Long Chun

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuKe1973 View Post
    Greeting all.
    I've posted a clip over my break time to share how I've been taught to express Pak Mei Pai using 4 energies.
    I encourage more discussion should there be questions do write to us.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqB6lOwnmCA

    Alex Do
    Pak Mei Pai MN
    Excellent clip Alex.
    Thank you.

    When you get a chance I would love to see that being applied in a practical way.
    Curious as to how it would work since it looks similar to the SPM I have been exposed to.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #32
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    faai wah

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    QFT - I mean, there is like almost NO thoracic / costal / pelvic movement AT ALL - even if he's 'internalized" his BM, there is still going to b the undulation / wave movement present; he's 100% shoulder down, no connection to his feet to speak of...
    Mong ar? M tai dak ar? The first clip is Jik Bo. It's a pitty you can't see the thoracic movement in jin chui. Check out Gau Bo Tui after the whip there's quite the chum ging with the thoracic. Maybe I need to put it in slow mo your your taai gik ge ngaan.

    Pardon my fierce nature, but it the spirit of the leopard and tiger speaking that I must represent.

    When I practice Taiji, I may speak of snake and crane, but in this forum you will get mang fu!

    Alex Do
    Pak Mei VP MN (btw- don't compare lingnam mo sut with concepts of peng, lu, ji, an...)

  3. #33
    I read and saw the take on Bak Mei's 4 energies... totally different to how I understand Bak Mei and kung fu to be. Fau Chum is a product of chi and intent, because anyone can stand up and sit down, its just not that superficial. Tun To is something that occurs at each joint and requires no attention at all. Punch and your armpit, elbow, and wrist (for some part) open up and extend, and this is "to". Retract that punch and those joints close, this is "tun". No mystery here.

    The posture is unstable and unhealthy too. Curving the back like that puts much pressure on the upper cervicals and mechanically prevents you from releasing proper force. Did Jeung Lai Cheun have posture like that? No he did not.

    Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. There are rotation in all strikes either from the hips or the shoulders. What is the behavior of thoracic vertebrae when there is rotation during forward flexion? Spinal mechanics, theres no argument and oh so much supporting research and evidence.

    Could any videos be posted of that version of posture and motion striking a punchingbag? Im sure it will have to be modified in order to withstand the impact, but would like to be proven wrong!


  4. #34
    soulfist,

    Do you practice BM?




    Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine.



    Chi, Intent riding the spine? can one really do this?
    Could you please explain?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-30-2011 at 01:31 PM.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DuKe1973 View Post
    Pak Mei VP MN (btw- don't compare lingnam mo sut with concepts of peng, lu, ji, an...)


    This is a fair statement. Taiji is not the universal fit to everything.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-30-2011 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #36
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    Sink the elbows, drop the shoulders motto

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    QFT - I mean, there is like almost NO thoracic / costal / pelvic movement AT ALL - even if he's 'internalized" his BM, there is still going to b the undulation / wave movement present; he's 100% shoulder down, no connection to his feet to speak of...

    "Chum jaang suk bok" (sink the elbows, concave the shoulders). - Hakka kuen saying. For those who never heard this need to "faan heung ha jup ngau si..."
    If I throw you a 50 lb bag a rice, you going to catch with your shoulders up?? I'm a taiji player as well, so I'm quite surprised that you don't drop the shoulders in Tuei sau...Dropping the shoulders grounds your bridges and core as well as enhances your sensitivity to incoming force. Even in ballroom dance, you must drop the shoulders. Watch my video Jook Lum Nim Kiu (sticky bridges). Saying what it is is one thing, knowing what it's not is another..

    Du Ke (Alex Do)
    Pak Mei VP Minnesota

  7. #37
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    Release a bow and the bow bends.

    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    I read and saw the take on Bak Mei's 4 energies... totally different to how I understand Bak Mei and kung fu to be. Fau Chum is a product of chi and intent, because anyone can stand up and sit down, its just not that superficial. Tun To is something that occurs at each joint and requires no attention at all. Punch and your armpit, elbow, and wrist (for some part) open up and extend, and this is "to". Retract that punch and those joints close, this is "tun". No mystery here.

    The posture is unstable and unhealthy too. Curving the back like that puts much pressure on the upper cervicals and mechanically prevents you from releasing proper force. Did Jeung Lai Cheun have posture like that? No he did not.

    Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. There are rotation in all strikes either from the hips or the shoulders. What is the behavior of thoracic vertebrae when there is rotation during forward flexion? Spinal mechanics, theres no argument and oh so much supporting research and evidence.

    Could any videos be posted of that version of posture and motion striking a punchingbag? Im sure it will have to be modified in order to withstand the impact, but would like to be proven wrong!

    Obviously you haven't seen Bruce Lee punch a heavy bag.... and yes Cheung Lai Chuen did punch like that. I do adjustments and thorough TCM which includes zheng gu and tui na and do not agree with your statements. My sifu has seen Cheung Lai Chuen perform up close in HK and follows the movements of his disciple Ng Yiu. I dare to object because I am a representative of Pak Mei and will demonstrate to set an example. If you think Qi intention is floating, you're wrong. Intent moves qi and qi is in every element and in every movement if applied correctly. You can even do standing zhuang for qi cultivation. When it comes down to it, body mechanics are still involved. Punches come in and the chest hollows.... keep it simple. Release a bow and the bow bends, simple as that.... faai si choy lay...

  8. #38
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    Nice video Alex. Pleased to meet you. Minnesota?


    As another poster said, "you can see it when it happens properly", not only the 'pop' of the faat ging, but the spine and belly movement too.

    I agree that the Chow Fook videos are pretty exceptional, but the poor old gentleman was well past his prime, and very stiff with age. He is hing-dai with my Si-gung.

    the video of the New Zealand Sifu doing Gau Bo Twi is pretty 'classic' as per a wu shu demo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lji8_...eature=related and probably the best textbook example.

    The slow stuff, just demonstration and teaching/showing, not doing, IMHO. I mean, I play it that way sometimes just for grins, focus on breathing, other stuff like that, but it 's a different thing.

    You'll notice, the shoulders and head stay in front of the hips, generally. when you see the head being thrown back, it breaks the form and strength. Pak Mei is full of formulae, all you have to do is look and check the positioning, its not rocket science...

    Ronin-
    Short power in a more live demonstration:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h79sQ795Crc

    Short power in light sparring:
    look at the end, around 120, especially around 1:29
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TodaiLeu.../0/HqoV_ivujLM

    What you reckon?
    Last edited by Yum Cha; 08-30-2011 at 09:03 PM.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by DuKe1973 View Post
    Obviously you haven't seen Bruce Lee punch a heavy bag.... and yes Cheung Lai Chuen did punch like that. I do adjustments and thorough TCM which includes zheng gu and tui na and do not agree with your statements. My sifu has seen Cheung Lai Chuen perform up close in HK and follows the movements of his disciple Ng Yiu. I dare to object because I am a representative of Pak Mei and will demonstrate to set an example. If you think Qi intention is floating, you're wrong. Intent moves qi and qi is in every element and in every movement if applied correctly. You can even do standing zhuang for qi cultivation. When it comes down to it, body mechanics are still involved. Punches come in and the chest hollows.... keep it simple. Release a bow and the bow bends, simple as that.... faai si choy lay...
    Jeung Lai Cheun did punch like that you say? Id say all his earlier students would disagree with you entirely! Adjustments through TCM... well I do adjustments through Chiropractic and would argue spinal mechanics with you anytime lad. Seeing JLC up close is not a selling point, otherwise I have 3 teachers who have learned with him directly and this is stronger than just seeing him... though if you think about it neither really holds water. I dont know, you are just too positive that you are right that you wouldnt listen to me even if I was Jeung Lai Cheun. Fai si choi lei tim!

    Heres a clip of how my association does Bak Mei, though performed somewhat lazily here. Some may disagree which is fine but this is the way we understand and perform Bak Mei. Look at 4:21 of the clip to see it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTuDb47Axdw

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post
    Jeung Lai Cheun did punch like that you say? Id say all his earlier students would disagree with you entirely! Adjustments through TCM... well I do adjustments through Chiropractic and would argue spinal mechanics with you anytime lad. Seeing JLC up close is not a selling point, otherwise I have 3 teachers who have learned with him directly and this is stronger than just seeing him... though if you think about it neither really holds water. I dont know, you are just too positive that you are right that you wouldnt listen to me even if I was Jeung Lai Cheun. Fai si choi lei tim!

    Heres a clip of how my association does Bak Mei, though performed somewhat lazily here. Some may disagree which is fine but this is the way we understand and perform Bak Mei. Look at 4:21 of the clip to see it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTuDb47Axdw

    Soulfist, do you really think there is that much difference, considering the general variations within Pak Mei. I don't. Chow Fook has more ferocity from his Loong Ying, in my humble opinion.

    Have you seen this video? It says Dragon style, but it is the Pak Mei Ying Jau Lin Que form, the exchange form from Loong Ying. Notice his waist movement...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEL_GpG15dg

    and this video, again, look at the belly and waist: http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/imag...kmei_ging.mpeg

    I find both of those to be pretty impressive videos. Both clearly show the collapsing belly and rising extension that characterise the "swallow/spit" "rise/fall' character of Pak Mei.

    And since we're getting the Pak Mei folks together, I think its important to mention that HK, Gunagzhou & Vietnam and Futsan all have slightly different evolutions.

    Futsan evolved with a lot of additions from the 5th, 6th and onward generations, Guangzhou has more Loong Ying in it, and it kind of froze at the end of WWII when the masters left and the rest were chased underground by the Red Guard, and HK evolved and evolved until Grandmaster Died, adding new bits and developing a codification for the style. That's my take at least.

    As for punching bags....

    We punch big hand held crash bags, not swinging heavy bags. Just convenience, nothing more.

    Having been on the receiving end of perhaps 100,000 punches over the years I can tell you some things about Pak Mei punching, lets look at Sut Choi for simplicity.

    You can hit and drive, sure, try to sink your fist in to the wrist if you like, and yea, works a charm. But a well executed sut choi with faat ging, with half a fist of penetration, can go right through the bag and hurt me. Standard issue of blunt powerful power or sharp penetrating shock...

    Additionally, rolling the shoulders a bit like that protects your jaw, and helps you cover up.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  11. #41
    I dont know, but Im not so invested in this conversation anymore.

    Here is my first teacher of Bak Mei, though I learned from him 2 decades prior to this performance:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9fvY4MfouY

    Here is my clansman of my association just former to now, the way I was training Bak Mei just a few years ago:
    http://www.56.com/u54/v_NTg3MTgyMzM.html

    Ive trained with at least a dozen teachers, from 5th to 10th generations, and regardless of the skill ranging from lame to exceptional they all talk the talk and convince their respective students beyond doubt that their versions and methods are the purest and most accurate.

    Believe as you like, I convince you doesnt benefit me and you convince me doesnt benefit you.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by soulfist View Post

    Here is my clansman of my association just former to now, the way I was training Bak Mei just a few years ago:
    http://www.56.com/u54/v_NTg3MTgyMzM.html
    .


    This sifu is using Yi Chuan's six face force and compete force concept, so I am not convince this is pure BM.


    Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine.

    Could you please explain what do you mean by keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. ?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-31-2011 at 12:40 AM.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Yum Cha View Post
    and this video, again, look at the belly and waist: http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/imag...kmei_ging.mpeg

    I find both of those to be pretty impressive videos. Both clearly show the collapsing belly and rising extension that characterise the "swallow/spit" "rise/fall' character of Pak Mei.


    There is a reason why the belly and waist action in this type of art.
    often the shoulder upper back handing was over done. However, there is a good reason.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    This sifu is using Yi Chuan's six face force and compete force concept, so I am not convince this is pure BM.
    Yichuan does not use this theory, your way off with that. Luk Ging / Liu Jin what your referring to is a southern concept and found in many similar styles to Bak Mei. This is physics of motion, medically it is the three planes: sagittal, coronal, and transverse planes.

    The performer Gong Faat Ming has no exposure to Yichuan or other such arts, nor did his teacher before him. Dont put limitations on Bak Mei like the others, instead try to consider what it "is" capable of!


    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Could you please explain what do you mean by keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. ?
    Qigong and Kungfu differ (for this discussion) in that Qigong follows the meridians whereas Kungfu follows the marrow. Structurally, which is what this is about, force comes from the back and not the front. Whenever the back is hunched it is due to a practitioner unable to train his shoulder girdle to move independently of the torso, making it necessary to hunch to achieve "hum hung". If proper training and time is spent then the thoracic should elongate upwards while the scapula rounds out and forwards. I just said up, out, forward... the three planes that I previously mentioned!

    That hunch places a load on the neck and presses on the brain stem at the foramen magnum, do it and feel the suboccipital tension for yourself! The spine must be free to move and at no time hunchs. Visually where do you see the tension in the practitioners body? Take an objective look, subcostally in the front and higher up in the T3-7 region laterally behind. Tension, it blocks chi and hinders motion. Do you see the same thing present in the clip I showed?


    If you disbelieve then I lead you right back to Jeung Lai Cheun's description of Bak Mei's posture (4 points) and you will see that number three is contradicted with the hunch!

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    There is a reason why the belly and waist action in this type of art.
    often the shoulder upper back handing was over done. However, there is a good reason.
    Yes, the guy in the white suit is a bit exaggerated, more for the exercise than for fighting application, but I find it impressive nevertheless, and applicable.

    Soulfist, sorry for any offense, none intended. Just a bit of note comparison. I'm always interested in different takes on the style.

    I like the second video of your former Clansman. The exercise with the giant bamboo is great. Do you know if the Hap Ging Do still exists? I'm told Sui Ting Fun is living in HK now.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

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