This is Pak Mei Master Simon Lui Long Chun

[Yum Cha]

Learning and understanding aren't the same thing.
Anyone can learn math, not everyone can understand it and the difference is huge.
Same thing for TCMA.
I believe it is because not everyone has the right mental frame for every system.
Some systems require a laid back person and others a potential sociopath.

Mindfulness of your training as opposed to rote learning?
Both are best...


People do tend to pick what they like, eh?
Yea, I never forget that MA is like any product in the market, there are lots of consumers, and lots of different brands, each offering its own unique mix of actual and perceived benefits. Bell curve with the most being the most average, and either extreme having the elite or the total con.

I'm sure Gene has the demographics!

[Hendrik]

Yum Cha,

I am not a BM player, the following are what I found from my research.


1, Those WCK story are totally wrong. hahaha.
not that way in the history of technology.

2, The hunch back is due to trying to achieve 內練一口氣 外練筋皮骨. or internally one cultivate the breathing, externally one condition the sinew, skin, and bone.

the BM type of hunch back is developed due to the center of the BM power generation is internally one cultivate the breath. meaning, that breathing is the center of the universal and the bone, the spine, the muscle....... are all align to support that breath.

So, it is not about Qi, or spine, or ....etc. but the body evolve into that way to support the hard Qigong type of breathing, namely, force Qi down to Dan Tien. This is very different from Sink Qi down to Dan Tien type of art. IE: SLT of Wing Chun.




Thus, doing this BM type of art means, every breath, one needs to have a solid deep breathing into the lower abs. That is the bottom line and a must to be taking care of before other things. and due to that need various place in the body align to support this. IE the concave of the chest and the alignment on the lower back.

So, this type of art, if one cannot develop this above, one basically doesnt have the power to do the rest.

Now, if people doesnt know the core is the breathing and let the breathing as the GPS;
one will get side track into over doing hunch back, moving spine unneccesary (due to trying to mimic taichi...etc); because they will think they need to do those because some one else doing IE sifu is doing it. but they really dont know what are they trying to achive.



In addition,
as for the theory of Qi and bone marrow in the spine...etc. those are partial view which need to clearly understand. otherwise, it will never work effectively.



For example
Qi travel down from head to Dan Dien via Ren Medirian while exhale. It doesnt travel in the Spine or Du medirian as some might thought.

In fact, Qi travel upward around spine via Du medirian at inhale . at exhale Qi simply dont travel this way but travel via Ren medirian down ward.

if you look at the hunch back moment, those are the movement in exhale phase, and that "hunch back" , if not over doing, is actually supporting Qi flow in the Ren medirian . that is according to the nature.

furthermore, Qi got to flow to make the bone marrow alive. so, if bone marrow needs to be in the picture, then one cannot avoid Qi flow.


So, Everything is inter-related into one piece. without know the details one cannot master the kung fu.

more important, one needs to know what is the primary/dominon key to handle to lead one into a proper basic training.

in the BM case, it is simple basic breathing. one must achieve a solid breathing. one adjust one's body to support that breathing.




sure, today, Taiji, Xing Yi, Yi Chuan type of concept influence TCMA alots, and it is not suprise that in the evolution of southern art, some evolve their art with the Taiji...etc concept. However, if one is not careful on what one is doing. one could lost one's art due to one cant simply import Taiji into one's art and called it internal.

For example, if the Wing Chun people trying to use BM type of frame and breathing that will not fit well; due to the structure of Wing Chun is not design to be that way.

just some thoughts.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks Hendrik
Interesting reading. Makes a lot of sense to me, reasonably accurate from my physical experience.

and Yea, well, not much of a Wing Chun scholar.

And I have a puzzle for you, concerning the flow of breath and muscular tension you discribed.. Actually a puzzle for me, you might care less....

Yes, we strike on the exhale, a long drawn out one across several strikes perhaps, but we also train to do the same on the inhale...

The concept being that your breathing sets your core and platform, but doesn't restrain your striking, charging or pulling. This is not sui lam breathing...

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik
Interesting reading. Makes a lot of sense to me, reasonably accurate from my physical experience.

and Yea, well, not much of a Wing Chun scholar.

And I have a puzzle for you, concerning the flow of breath and muscular tension you discribed.. Actually a puzzle for me, you might care less....

Yes, we strike on the exhale, a long drawn out one across several strikes perhaps, but we also train to do the same on the inhale...

The concept being that your breathing sets your core and platform, but doesn't restrain your striking, charging or pulling. This is not sui lam breathing...

IMO,
at inhale if one does a strike, the strike is very different type then the exhale type due to the nature of the human body.

all is simple human body nature boundary condition or limit.

[TAO YIN]

The chest concaves because the shoulders are to be relaxed, and become more and more relaxed over time. It should be a pretty relaxed effort; perhaps forced somewhat to sink the breath into the core, but still pretty relaxed. The lower vertebrae aligns and doesn't really hunch that much if a person hits anything with much force. This exxagerated hunch occurs in forms a lot for some players. It doesn't occur when hitting something unless one wants to lose power, simply because it takes out the element of yul ma (waist) when one exaggerates the hunch in the lower vertebrae. Chi flows through all meridians, all the time, constantly, until death. It doesn't stop then start.

[Yum Cha]

IMO,
at inhale if one does a strike, the strike is very different type then the exhale type due to the nature of the human body.

all is simple human body nature boundary condition or limit.

When you are startled and you jump, do you gasp (inhale) or yell (exhale)?

[Hendrik]

When you are startled and you jump, do you gasp (inhale) or yell (exhale)?

for me,
depend, if you lift your body then inhale is the nature. if you throw your body then exhale is the nature.

there are qi flow related to these but I dont want to get in here. it is a matter or is one using the yin medirians or yang medirians. is one withdraw or is one attack.

there are , physical layer, breathing layer, intention layer, qi flow layer and all these layer sit on top of the awareness layer. every layer has its own law and variation.

[Howard]

for me,
depend, if you lift your body then inhale is the nature. if you throw your body then exhale is the nature.

there are qi flow related to these but I dont want to get in here. it is a matter or is one using the yin medirians or yang medirians. is one withdraw or is one attack.

there are , physical layer, breathing layer, intention layer, qi flow layer and all these layer sit on top of the awareness layer. every layer has its own law and variation.

So all possibilities are correct under the appropriate circumstances - shock and calm may manifest differently - healthy or not, effective or not - different issue

[Hendrik]

So all possibilities are correct under the appropriate circumstances - shock and calm may manifest differently - healthy or not, effective or not - different issue

Depend on how deep is ones Kung Fu how much details one has handling in different layer.
The deeper the Kung Fu the more the choice one has.

as you know, advance kung fu means how many changes it can be done within a move.

[Yum Cha]

Nothing new under the sun compadre
I've tried to get back into hard sparring but that "inner ear" thing I got is horrid, get dizzy spells way too much...
So doing the bag work, the pad work, conditioning, etc,etc...
Such is life...

Minuerres Disease? (sp?) I had inner ear dammage from a virus, used to kick in now and again, in ever diminishing frequency. Like having massive bed spins, but no grog to blame it on. Its one of those things they treat with weed. I ended up losing 80% balance one ear, but knock on wood, no grief for a couple of years. Mild touch on occasion, but not enough to matter.

Its very hard to diagnose, it took an A grade specialist to figure it out. Same old bloke that did Elton John's throat surgery. A virus in the inner ear...

[R]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9...'s_disease

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com.../menieres.html

:' )

Google is your friend.

R

[Dark Chi]

The chest concaves because the shoulders are to be relaxed, and become more and more relaxed over time. It should be a pretty relaxed effort; perhaps forced somewhat to sink the breath into the core, but still pretty relaxed. The lower vertebrae aligns and doesn't really hunch that much if a person hits anything with much force. This exxagerated hunch occurs in forms a lot for some players. It doesn't occur when hitting something unless one wants to lose power, simply because it takes out the element of yul ma (waist) when one exaggerates the hunch in the lower vertebrae. flows through all meridians, all the time, constantly, until death. It doesn't stop then start.

I totally agree with you about the relaxed part,however I think most of you are mistaken that the chest isn't actually con-caved.I would say simply drop the shoulders and relax them tuck the tail bone in and clench the buttocks at point of impact(punching out).

I believe that if you do concave the chest you will find yourselves over stretching especially on the rise of the Bui Jee, which leads me to over rising if you over rise then your hips will loose power.IMO the energy or or ging in this explosion travels in horizontal circles(coils) and not vertical circles.

The Bui jee is very important for you alignment,this is the guide without this you will find you have not balance,maybe strength in your MA bo but no balance.

Thanks for reading.

[Dark Chi]

IMO,
at inhale if one does a strike, the strike is very different type then the exhale type due to the nature of the human body.

all is simple human body nature boundary condition or limit.

Breathing-I believe to breath naturally Do Not force breath,let yourselves find a rhythm and that rhythm "WILL" change.

We train beyond bounderies beyond condition and beyond our limitations,I dont know how you train,but we strive for Perfection(is perfection or the strive of it a limit?)

thanks for reading

[sanjuro_ronin]

Minuerres Disease? (sp?) I had inner ear dammage from a virus, used to kick in now and again, in ever diminishing frequency. Like having massive bed spins, but no grog to blame it on. Its one of those things they treat with weed. I ended up losing 80% balance one ear, but knock on wood, no grief for a couple of years. Mild touch on occasion, but not enough to matter.

Its very hard to diagnose, it took an A grade specialist to figure it out. Same old bloke that did Elton John's throat surgery. A virus in the inner ear...

They way that it was described to me was that there are these little "crystals" in our ears that keep the balance and pressure regualted and soemtimes due to sudden movement, they get dislodged and can cause extreme vertigo and nausea.
Like watching a Paule Shore or Rob Schneider movie.

[Dark Chi]

Thanks Hendrik
Interesting reading. Makes a lot of sense to me, reasonably accurate from my physical experience.

and Yea, well, not much of a Wing Chun scholar.

And I have a puzzle for you, concerning the flow of breath and muscular tension you discribed.. Actually a puzzle for me, you might care less....

Yes, we strike on the exhale, a long drawn out one across several strikes perhaps, but we also train to do the same on the inhale...

The concept being that your breathing sets your core and platform, but doesn't restrain your striking, charging or pulling. This is not sui lam breathing...

Yes I 100% agree this isnt sui lam anything!
When a wing chun practioner teaches pak mei then theres something wrong lol (no balance)

Thanks for reading