None kickboxing kung fu sparring

[TenTigers]

dang, I must be missing something. looked like crap to me. A "monk" doing techniques, leaving himself wide open, on a totally compliant "opponent," who basically just stood there.
So, is this a serious thread, or did I miss the sarcasm?
If it's serious...well...Dave Ross wins.

[TenTigers]

The man used valid TCMA techniques in sparring (I believe that DJ referred to that fact, as well). He used them well! He had roots and stance!

yer freakin blind...

[ginosifu]

dang, I must be missing something. looked like crap to me. A "monk" doing techniques, leaving himself wide open, on a totally compliant "opponent," who basically just stood there.
So, is this a serious thread, or did I miss the sarcasm?
If it's serious...well...Dave Ross wins.

I am going to half to agree with TT here. Vid looked like crap. His attacker did squat, and he was moving too slow.

I here the argument "he was using kung fu techniques", but no it was bad.

ginosifu

[Yum Cha]

dang, I must be missing something. looked like crap to me. A "monk" doing techniques, leaving himself wide open, on a totally compliant "opponent," who basically just stood there.
So, is this a serious thread, or did I miss the sarcasm?
If it's serious...well...Dave Ross wins.

The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.

As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...

If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...

Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic. His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.

Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.

[Hardwork108]

The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.

As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...

If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...

Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic. His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.

Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.

Good points.

[taai gihk yahn]

I believe that some of you guys have missed (as usual) the point of the video.

the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good; nothing more;

The man used valid TCMA techniques in sparring (I believe that DJ referred to that fact, as well).

yes, this is true, a lot of the techniques were "classical"

He used them well!

because his opponent allowed him to!

He had roots and stance!

most of the time he was "dancing" around - in a manner pretty analagous to what kickboxer's do...

Yes, he had his head "exposed", BUT did not get hit!

because the other guy wasn't trying to hit him! Can you really not be aware of that?

And yes, the other guy was no good, but perhaps if he was good the monk:
A: Would NOT have pulled his techniques??????
B: Would have protected his head more????

perhaps, but we can't know that since the other guy wasn't doing anything that would necessitate it; so it's conjecture at best;

In either case, I am sure that he would not have lost his stance and hopped around, out of roots, like a typical "I know 'kung gu' ", Glorified Kickboxer.

um, he was "hopping around" most of the time - he was constantly in motion, there was no "root" when he was outside of range (I mean, u understand "root" necessarily requires that the feet not be moving, right?)

That is the point of the video. It was not a death match!

no, again, the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good;

The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.

yes, he did have some varied footwork patterns (or wait - was it stance and root?) - however, there were a few problems w his footwork; first off, he didn't USE the footwork to set up anything: no matter what he did, the opponent just stood there, waiting to be attacked - meaning that, while the monk shifted around outside of range, we have no idea if he knew how to TIME his footwork off of his opponent's reactions or to use it to evade his opponent's attacks - second, he danced around outside, but when he entered, it was pretty much always straight in, hands down, head exposed - sometimes he even led in w his head, other times he had this little backwards lean thing he did - neither all that effective, unless your opponent just stands there and lets u come in, which is what happened here;

As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...

um, exsqueeze me? outside of range "they go down"? u'r kidding, right?

If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...

here's a handy guide to keeping ur hands up: do it, all the time, like, always;

Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic.

it is if u can utilize it against someone who falls for it; but guess what: against a seasoned fighter it can actually be a disadvantage because a) sooner or later u will get timed when u switch stances, and u r going to get attacked when u do; b) ur single sided stanced opponent will always be at his optimal capacity to move, deliver power shots, etc., because he has trained his delivery system exclusively on one side; the stance-switcher will be split btw the two sides, and his brain has to switch gears every time to favor whatever he has optimized on a given side, which will not be the same on each; meaning that there will not be the same level of familiarity w his function as the single-stanced guy (trust me, this has to do with how the brain is programmed in terms of it's ability to engage in bilateral activity)

His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.

some would call this lack of economy of movement; the other thing is that when u r always in movement, it's actually easier to get timed and hit;

Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.

no, it was all about the monk looking good;

[taai gihk yahn]

He had roots and stance!

The best of this demo was the movement and the footwork.
...it was all about footwork, IMHO.

Good points.

I get it - today is Opposite Day, right?

[ginosifu]

The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.

As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...

If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...

Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic. His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.

Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.

Hardwork / Yum Cha;

The monk looks he has been training and has some skills under his belt. However, the partner was doing nothing aggressively or realistically. So any one can go in there and show or demonstrate some of their tech's cuz the guy was moving so slow.

The real trick is to be able to express all of that monk stuff while the attacker was really going after him with fast / aggressive fighting.

I understand your point about showing kung fu tech's but they are not valid without the stress of reality type attacker on his ass and pressing him with hardcore fighting moves! Now if he was able to pull them off with his attacker guy really going after him I would have applauded.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

hardwork / yum cha;

the monk looks he has been training and has some skills under his belt. However, the partner was doing nothing aggressively or realistically. So any one can go in there and show or demonstrate some of their tech's cuz the guy was moving so slow.

The real trick is to be able to express all of that monk stuff while the attacker was really going after him with fast / aggressive fighting.

I understand your point about showing kung fu tech's but they are not valid without the stress of reality type attacker on his ass and pressing him with hardcore fighting moves! Now if he was able to pull them off with his attacker guy really going after him i would have applauded.

Ginosifu

qft +100
...
and what's more, the more pressure, the less what he did would look like 'kung fu technique", because under pressure, simplicity reigns in terms of effectiveness, so a ot of the "stylistic" stuff won't look as such (unless u do i chuan, I guess, lol); not to say that he couldn't achieve skill under pressure w TCMA training, but when the sh1t hits the fan, what works will look the same across the board...

[Hardwork108]

I get it - today is Opposite Day, right?

You can have solid roots and stance, together with mobile foot work. I would say that this aspect of the TCMAs is rather misunderstood by the cross training fraternity...

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork / Yum Cha;

The monk looks he has been training and has some skills under his belt. However, the partner was doing nothing aggressively or realistically. So any one can go in there and show or demonstrate some of their tech's cuz the guy was moving so slow.

The real trick is to be able to express all of that monk stuff while the attacker was really going after him with fast / aggressive fighting.

I understand your point about showing kung fu tech's but they are not valid without the stress of reality type attacker on his ass and pressing him with hardcore fighting moves! Now if he was able to pull them off with his attacker guy really going after him I would have applauded.

ginosifu

I agree, and my main point was to show real kung fu in sparring context. Of course, it was not a serious fight, but I was attempting to show a TCMA-ist sparring in the TCMA way. I still believe that the monk would not have changed his tactic to hopping around, "a la" kickboxing, if the opposition turned out to be more resistant.

[Hardwork108]

the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good; nothing more;

Perhaps the monk deserved to look good?

yes, this is true, a lot of the techniques were "classical"

The reason I posted the video.

because his opponent allowed him to!

People usually win because the opponent "allows" them too. Having said that, I do understand the point you are trying to make, but then I posted the video to show the "classical" approach in a sparring context.

Incidentally, that is how I was taught to fight in two different TCMA schools.

most of the time he was "dancing" around - in a manner pretty analagous to what kickboxer's do...

I disagree. One of the things that made his approach "classical" was his stance and roots.

because the other guy wasn't trying to hit him! Can you really not be aware of that?

Perhaps his superior skill put off the guy from even trying?

It is also possible that it was just demonstration sparring, even if on the realistic side?

Now, the first batch of clips the other guy did not show much intention. However, in the last few sparring clips, the opponent did not even seem to get a chance to do much....

perhaps, but we can't know that since the other guy wasn't doing anything that would necessitate it; so it's conjecture at best;

Yep, but from the little I saw, my money would be on the monk having some potent fighting abilities.

um, he was "hopping around" most of the time - he was constantly in motion, there was no "root" when he was outside of range (I mean, u understand "root" necessarily requires that the feet not be moving, right?)

Um, you can be rooted and mobile at the same time.

no, again, the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good;

Well, I think we have gathered that, but I would say that the monk WAS good. I say that from the little I saw. This is of course subjective, but I don't want to go into "my subjectiveness is superior to yours", arena.

I would also like to add something as regards the monk having his head exposed. When I sparred with my Wing Chun sifu, sometimes his head would be "exposed", because he knew that no way in hell, I would be able to hit it.

There is also the possibility that the parties involved had agreed not to connect to the head.

Anyway, the point was that classical techniques can be used in sparring. That is how I spar. It is all in the training - the long root Vs the short root!

One might argue with the usual, why take the long root, instead of the short one, but then that is another discussion for another thread.

[B.Tunks]

Devil's advocate: dropping guard and regularly switching stances as deliberate tactics = Anderson Silva.

[Hardwork108]

Devil's advocate: dropping guard and regularly switching stances as deliberate tactics = Anderson Silva.

No IMPOSSIBLE!

Only the deadlyz MMA fighters have the ability to do that, any TCMA-ist trying that would get KO-ed if they tried.

Seriously speaking, EXCELLENT point. The monk was very confident and had abilities and what you say is perfectly plausible as a strategy.

Thank you again for your logical take.

[goju]

The problem still remains that the other guy wasnt putting any pressure on the monk

he was timid and wouldn't engage fully.That's what separates Silva from him.We have Anderson do that and have his opponents pressure him at the same time so its completely different ball park.

Now if that was the case with the monk and he still fought like that then there wouldn't be any dispute