Forward Thrust Knife VS Hammer Down Knife

[ginosifu]

Since I have decided to teach the Angry Monkey Double Dagger set, I thought we might have a discussion on which style of dagger fighting do you prefer?

Forward knife Thrust with the blade coming out of your tiger's mouth. (index finger and web of thumb):



Hammer down knife or ice pick with the blade coming out of the pinky finger:



I have trained in both methods but prefer the downward knife. What are your methods and what do you prefer?

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

I use both, sometimes flipping the blade during the technique.
Saber grip allows for greater distance in slashing cuts, and enables forward thrusts and back cuts (if you use a double edged blade), while reverse grip allows for hooking and trapping, and guards the inner wrist's tendons and blood vessels. Reverse grip also allows better concealment prior to engaging the attacker.
Gino, if you prefer reverse grip, you may be interested in the Al-Mar Warrior. It was designed by CMAist and the curvature of the blade contours to the forearm. It was modeled after a mantis' hook! Very cool. Not sure if they are still in production, though.

[Frost]

Although its been a while since I trained with knifes (being a sports lad these days) from all the studies I have seen, accounts i have read in the papers and anecdotal evidence (on here and talking to guys that have been in fights) most serious injuries from knife attacks (and most fatalities) happen from stabs not slashes, and most serious guys with a knife seem to go for the machine gun rapid stabbing action to overwhelm their opponent and finish him quickly. which makes me wonder why the ice pick grip would be anyones first choice: its seems to be mainly a slashing hold, making it hard to stab unless you raise it above your head or bring it close to the body in order to get the point towards your opponent, and where as the first grip allows for multiple stabbing and slashing at extended range it seem to me to reduce not increases your reach

But like I say its been years since I played with a knife so will be interested in peoples opinions on the subject

[David Jamieson]

ok...lol

no guard would keep you to slashing... if you try to punch a hole, it's likely that you will cut your own fingers because there is no guard to stop them running down the length of the blade as you try to penetrate with it.

anyway, if you wanna get an understanding of what grip works for you and what techs are quick and high percent, get a tire stack and start practicing with it.

even a tire on a rope is good, but a stack on a post is good.

you will find that after a few slashes and punches that you are now encountering difficulty with weapon retention. After a while, your strikes are getting weaker and weaker and your penetrations aren't that good. But, you will understand that just because you have a knife in your hand, you don't necessarily have the advantage.

It's difficult. It's even more difficult to have the correct intention to stick a knife in someone when you have a clear mind.

In fact, I would say intention is the most difficult thing to instill in someone or to train in yourself. To me, it seems it's one of those things you either have or you don't.

anyway, no guard = not a preferred knife for me personally. lock folders and all that are novelty knives. a Bowie with a guard or a dagger with a guard, that is a knife for fighting.

little folders are for camping, gutting fish and taking knots out of shoes in my opinion. It's a utility knife more than an effective weapon. Unless someone goes all bruce lee, in which case, yes, a pencil is as good as a gun in a pinch when it comes to needing to put a hole in someones body.

[TenTigers]

no guard knives are usually a secondary or backup weapon,(many FMAists carry more than one knife so that they can deploy their weapon from wherever their hand is.) or for carrying concealed if you are wearing a dress suit or something. Folders are also for concealed carry, although there are some larger folders, such as the Applegate folder.
That being said, the fighting folders and smaller knives being sold by the better brands have contours and indentations to prevent slippage onto the blade during thrusts.
Most of my cutting is with slash technique, wrist, tendons, neck, brachial artery, lower abdominal, femoral artery,etc. so I can get in and out quick. When doing thrusts usually going towards neck, abdominal aeorta, armpit, subclavian artery, pernium, etc.
If you have any experience with a Bowie type fighting knife, there are extended snapping flick cuts using the reverse grip that actually have quite a bit of range, but are more for a set-up strike than a finishing cut.

[Jimbo]

The best knife is the knife you'll have on you when you need it. Unfortunately, for most folks, that won't be a big Bowie knife. I do agree with DJ that intention is everything, and that a knife (any knife) will do you no good if you lack the determination to really use it.

However, I would point out that folders are not novelty items. There are a lot of people who have been killed with folding knives, and not necessarily wielded by trained knife fighters or hardened criminals. I even saw a teen who'd been stabbed to death by his father. The weapon? A regular little red-handled, non-locking Swiss Army knife. It's even been said that Billy the Kid killed his first man by using the broken half-inch blade on a pocketknife. There's a saying that goes (I'm paraphrasing): It doesn't matter if I kill you with a bomb, a machine gun, a pistol, a sword, or a 3" blade; dead is dead.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Both holds are good, with pros and cons on both sides.
In terms of versatility the "sabre grip" has the edge, but in terms of raw power, the "hammer grip" gets the nod.
That said the issue is hoe they are trained and what they are used for.

[ginosifu]

Great points everyone. I realize that everyone's point are valid and DJ thanks for pointing out the possibility of sliding down the blade.

When I teach the Daggers or Modern self defense courses we emphasize the use of anything at hand. Whether it's a pair of scissors, or a cell phone or even a key chain, everything becomes the "Daggers". I like the Ice Pick or Hammer down method because I can place my thumb over the lid (top of the dagger as pictured above) of any weapon in my hand and use it for slashes and pokes.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

wow - I didn't realize so many people here had actual experience fighting with knives...

[David Jamieson]

wow - I didn't realize so many people here had actual experience fighting with knives...

training with knives, training. lol

I've been cut though...and shot.

fml I guess.

For the record, only bored poverty stricken people with no hope bother with knife fighting as a pastime.

The rest of us train and talk about it.

still, I bet you could take a poor hobo even if he had a knife.

[lkfmdc]

wow - I didn't realize so many people here had actual experience fighting with knives...

I have actual experience fighting with wives

[David Jamieson]

I never shaved your wife, not once!

[ginosifu]

Gino, if you prefer reverse grip, you may be interested in the Al-Mar Warrior. It was designed by CMAist and the curvature of the blade contours to the forearm. It was modeled after a mantis' hook! Very cool. Not sure if they are still in production, though.

I never heard of it... I'll look it up and see.

I have actual experience fighting with wives

I am afraid of my wife. She said she would KEEEEeeeeel me if I ever cheated on her. I am not sure how much more knife fighting experience she has got on me. Man... I get scared when she's in the kitchen working on dinner with a big chopper in her hands.

ginosifu

[-N-]

I get scared when she's in the kitchen working on dinner with a big chopper in her hands.

The worst is when they look at you and say, "You'll fall asleep sooner or later."

[TenTigers]

The worst is when they look at you and say, "You'll fall asleep sooner or later."

That's why I sleep on my stomach.
(especially after the whole Lorraina Bobbit incident)