Luk Dim Boon Gwan

[Liddel]

In relation to my wider grip comment -

Totally incorrect imho, just a different type of power, hence 'soft' power.

Spencer, i totally see that it's a different type of power - but not one thats part of the rest of my VT hence not needing it, rather than not seeing value in it.

Rather than writing a long post trying to get my point across ill just ask -
Do you use other martial art techniques in your VT... say for instance a Boxing Right hook ?

A totally valuable and proven method but outside the confines of an already established fighting strategy and mindset of mine - VT - Same applies to my LDB Grip.

Im a Sifu Yau Ving Tsun operator. We just don't advocate wide grips and jumping in H2H or weapons use. Its just not OUR mindset.

I don't agree with all of that, more alive:yes, greater control:no. imho of course!

Greater control in terms of when i use a certain LDB action... against a specific coming attack. If we have different needs then we have different solutions.

Dont forget my comments are in relation to my specific actions and my specific strategy.

If one or both of those change then different techniques are warranted.

This is why i take the high road we i see others with drastically different habbits than i.

I assume it must mean we have a different applications rather than just out right saying others are wrong and my way is the right way, cause it really doesn't matter with regard to my own abilities.

Unless its Gap Do on the center line or Guarn Sau against a round kick.... each to their own.

Even though we may share history Spencer, do you find more in common between our lineages or more differences ? and if so.. where do most of the differences lie IYO ?

[Liddel]

As a small example so you get my approach -

Pause the vid originally posted on page one.. at 14 secs or anywhere after the guys thrusts the pole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xm0e...layer_embedded

Note how his wider grip means his rear hand is nearer the arm pit rather than the elbow joint. Now note the angle of his wrist as a result. It has the palm facing up.

We prefer and advocate different mechanics.

A shoulder width grip would mean when thrust, the rear hand is closer to the elbow (for many reasons we see this as a positive) and a closer grip also means when thrust you can still maintain a controlled grip with the palm facing left to right. And it wouldn't be right in front of your face as seen in the clip.

Under Sifu Lok or my own sifu with the horse that high, you wouldn't have learnt the form yet you would still be practicing the arrow horse trying to get your upper legs horizontal. And still practicing Dan Kwan trying to get you energy to the tip of the pole, which you would find difficult with a wider grip.

Notice how the tip of the pole is dead. all the energy generated by the horse and arms is stopped from reaching the tip by his lead hand.

I find its just not the specific techniques that differ these days but also the standard people reach before moving onto more advanced levels.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, i totally see that it's a different type of power - but not one thats part of the rest of my VT hence not needing it, rather than not seeing value in it.

Rather than writing a long post trying to get my point across ill just ask -
Do you use other martial art techniques in your VT... say for instance a Boxing Right hook ?

No. I use a right hook that originates from lan sau arm alignment, so it's very close side body and has a different energy to a boxers right hook/swing.

I try my hardest not to 'mix' anything because for me everything is here already in the system I learnt, including terms. We also have a chao kuen, which operates like an uppercut, and this too is drilled through pole methods.

Even though we may share history Spencer, do you find more in common between our lineages or more differences ? and if so.. where do most of the differences lie IYO ?

I would have to see examples to make an asessment dude!

Personally, I would think we have more common drills but be totally different with techniques, as I do see these as personal or individual additions. The methods of Wing Chun 'should' be universal, but on my first outing in 1997 I was made aware that what I had seen and learnt was not as common as I thought! Not even within our own Lee Shing family!!

[Liddel]

No. I use a right hook that originates from lan sau arm alignment, so it's very close side body and has a different energy to a boxers right hook/swing.

Exactly my point though. Its different because the habbits from boxing are not a part of your VT. you have your own techs for developing and using power for the hook, so you use that.

Same with the wider grip for the LDB. There isnt much you can achieve with a wider grip that i can't with my more narrow grip but the application and or overall tech will differ.

Personally my Lan Sau has nothing to do with a hook and im not a big fan of those that use and or derive a hook from the CK action. Especially as it has a very important use for me in close quarters thats nothing to do with an attack.

I hope you as well as others that see it as a hook also see the advantages in regainig the center and other contact advantages etc

But if your hooks the biz, good for you

We also have a chao kuen, which operates like an uppercut, and this too is drilled through pole methods.

Interesting, my uppercuts are born from CK.

When you say they are drilled throught the pole methods, what do you mean by this.. like in what way ?

[LoneTiger108]

Exactly my point though. Its different because the habbits from boxing are not a part of your VT.

Why would I want boxing habits? My habits are Wing Chun habits

Same with the wider grip for the LDB. There isnt much you can achieve with a wider grip that i can't with my more narrow grip but the application and or overall tech will differ.

I would argue that. They're totally different in application and drill result. They're not supposed to be compared with eachother, like what's best?? They work in unison and both need specific attention imho.

Personally my Lan Sau has nothing to do with a hook and im not a big fan of those that use and or derive a hook from the CK action.

Lansau (for me) does not originate from CK, so I don't get what your argument here is.

Interesting, my uppercuts are born from CK.

When you say they are drilled throught the pole methods, what do you mean by this.. like in what way ?

Again, my uppercut didn't originate from CK, just from good basic foundation.

Drilling for me is when you increase the intensity of a method for extended periods of time until your body has absorbed the method completely, so when I drill my uppercut with the pole the weight is gradually increased until I find my maximum and the method is repeated as above. I then would remove the pole and feel the benefit of using the weight

Everything I have drilled has gone through the use of weaponry and/or equipment like sandbags or wooden man, but that was all quite a while ago!! It's a bit more refined now and less intense...

[Graham H]

Why would I want boxing habits? My habits are Wing Chun habits

I would argue that.

Lansau (for me) does not originate from CK, so I don't get what your argument here is.

Lan Sau is part of Chum Kiu for a good reason. It is introduced in SLT but there is no application there. Just elbow position.

Again, my uppercut didn't originate from CK, just from good basic foundation.

There are no hooks or uppercuts in Ip Man Ving Tsun. I know there are in some Foshan lineages.

Drilling for me is when you increase the intensity of a method for extended periods of time until your body has absorbed the method completely, so when I drill my uppercut with the pole the weight is gradually increased until I find my maximum and the method is repeated as above. I then would remove the pole and feel the benefit of using the weight

Uppercut with the pole?? WTF

I think that Liddel has a good idea of Ving Tsun. His ideas behind the pole are sound.

GH

[Graham H]

.................apart from uppercuts in CK of course. That is just mental.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

There are no hooks or uppercuts in Ip Man Ving Tsun. I know there are in some Foshan lineages.

Funny that. Considering the post I wrote, which was deleted by Dave, outlining why the Lee Shing Family maybe quite different from others was because he had Fatshan (Foshan), Kulo and HK versions or influences in his Wing Chun teachings.

[Liddel]

Why would I want boxing habits? My habits are Wing Chun habits

You don't. My point is, you don't want non VT punches (the Boxing Hook) as much as i don't want the wide grip for the LDB (non VT for me). Even though both of these actions has sound value in fighting.

Lansau (for me) does not originate from CK, so I don't get what your argument here is.

This is why i don't post as often as others here There is no argument.
Just an explanation of my own thinking vs what you have put forward.
Each to their own.

Lan Sau is part of Chum Kiu for a good reason. It is introduced in SLT but there is no application there. Just elbow position.

Graham thats a shame. Lan Sau for me isn't in SLT, this to me is a static position marking the transition to either Double Fut Sau or Double Jum Sau.

There is application for Lan Sau from CK IMO and IME the difference between those that do and dont have application can be seen in the lan sau's direction when used in CK.

Some forms see it come across horizontally from the Bong - others have it moving left to right with the elbow lowered as you turn.

There is application in there for everyone to use in Chi sau if needed.

There are no hooks or uppercuts in Ip Man Ving Tsun. I know there are in some Foshan lineages.

I have an uppercut in CK so clearly some of us have it, what ever thats worth to you.

Spencer, clearly we have some differences in the pole work. Everyone has differences, good luck with training.

[Graham H]

Graham thats a shame. Lan Sau for me isn't in SLT, this to me is a static position marking the transition to either Double Fut Sau or Double Jum Sau.

A shame?? I don't get it. Lan Sau isnt in your SLT eh? Strange. The movements are double lan sau - double fak sau - double lan sau - double jum sau. So what is your idea of why we do these action?

There is application for Lan Sau from CK IMO and IME the difference between those that do and dont have application can be seen in the lan sau's direction when used in CK.Some forms see it come across horizontally from the Bong - others have it moving left to right with the elbow lowered as you turn. There is application in there for everyone to use in Chi sau if needed.

What is your purpose for Lan Sau?

I have an uppercut in CK so clearly some of us have it, what ever thats worth to you.

I used to think there was an uppercut in CK. If I performed this action and asked somebody (who didn't know) what that action was they would say it was an uppercut. It looks like one but it's not. What is your idea behind the reason we have CK and why would you use an uppercut?

The general idea behind CK about making "arm bridge" contact or "sinking/searching bridges" is wrong. Leave the bridge sinking to the army. That idea is nonsense.

The problem is when people take the literal cantonese translations and all sorts of problems can occur. "Sticky arms" is another wing chun paradox.

GH

[Liddel]

What is your purpose for Lan Sau?

First and foremost, regaining face to face alignment and controlling the center. But this threads about LDB so..

I used to think there was an uppercut in CK. If I performed this action and asked somebody (who didn't know) what that action was they would say it was an uppercut. It looks like one but it's not.

Mine is and has been taught this way, we have the not so popular 'ginger punch' as the connecting fist on the end of it as well

The general idea behind CK about making "arm bridge" contact or "sinking/searching bridges" is wrong. Leave the bridge sinking to the army. That idea is nonsense.

The problem is when people take the literal cantonese translations and all sorts of problems can occur. "Sticky arms" is another wing chun paradox.

I kinda agree, thats exactly why i could care less about the english meanings of terms, but each to their own.

If we cant agree on the names of actions, i call it Fut Sau you call it Fak Sau... why get into similarities etc.

[Graham H]

If we cant agree on the names of actions, i call it Fut Sau you call it Fak Sau... why get into similarities etc.

Good point. We don't practice the same VT.

I also used to have uppercuts and "ginger fists" so I can see where you are coming from.

G

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, clearly we have some differences in the pole work. Everyone has differences, good luck with training.

I know, and that's cool. I enjoy good discussions so I've never viewed what you write as 'argumentative' anyway dude.

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV8Ha...eature=related

I liked this showreel of his instructional series, and although I might not look exactly like what Sifu Chan is doing, this is one of the only clips I have seen with such variations on the pole methods.

has anyone here trained with him??