Luk Dim Boon Gwan

[anerlich]

But man, the last 2 posts sum up the sort of crass humour you have to put up with on KFO! And sometimes I do think certain things are not just said in light humour either

Standard Aussie response to the name dropping, and, um, "stick-measuring" that you guys were starting to bore us with.

[Phil Redmond]

Standard Aussie response to the name dropping, and, um, "stick-measuring" that you guys were starting to bore us with.

Andrew, fighters see one thing and . . . . .

[Phil Redmond]

Standard Aussie response to the name dropping, and, um, "stick-measuring" that you guys were starting to bore us with.

That saying works in the "hood" too.

[Graham H]

read this:
http://www.wingchun.co.nz/tabid/61/Default.aspx
Research is the key to knowledge. I don't believe anything ANYONE tells me without proof. I've had people tell me all sorts of stories. But without proof, it's just a story. This is fact though.

How do you know Phil?

If it is true about Yip Man teaching people depending on certain factors then that means that nobody can be sure what they are practicing. Even you! It would also seem logical to say that Yip Man only taught a very small group of people that he trusted, that were loyal, that were phyically and mentally capable, and that he accepted as friends. The only person that could reveal that knowledge is Yip Man himself and that will never be possible.

It will just be best to accept that for most if not all of us we are practicing a version of VT based on Yip Man's personal feelings towards our teachers or teachers teachers. That would explain why some is ludicrous and some is not.

If Yip Man was such a gifted fighter and respected for his skills outside of his system, in the community and generally in that time period I don't beleive for one minute that 99% of the tripe that is currently on YouTube and being practiced in many "Yip Man" Kung Fu schools is anything more that just made up junk.

GH

[k gledhill]

Chan Kin Man LDBG Clip

[Liddel]

In SLT CK BJ we have opening actions that help measure the centerline and elbow space and define the very basic positions.

The same is true of the LDB. An experienced teacher/user should pick the pole up and use techniques that help you measure your hand position and width on the pole before you do anything with it. This is the first thing i look at when accessing my own and others LDB skills.

I think there a very few left who have been taught the LDB from form to application.

Many hold the pole with a grip to far from the end and to wide apart for them to have been taught the Ip Man VT LDB. Many just pick it up and start swinging and thrusting.

Major oversight IMO. And this is just ONE aspect.

If you look a a lot of the Forms out there keep a eye out for the many differences in how the pole is held and ask yourself what downstream effects this has on application.

Those with experience with the pole will know the differences in force that occur between different hand positions and those that have been taught application will feel the major differences from Chi Kwan right through to sparring especially against the BJD.

There are people with fluid looking forms out there, great.
But anyone with experience will know fluid forms with poor hand positions will translate to major problems when actually trying to apply the principals to self protection.... very akin to the shocking BJD forms out there with crazy moves like Gap Do on the centerline.

Its with this idea that i agree with Graham (scary thought)... a lot of the LDB forms etc out there is peoples OWN interpretation rather than it being passed down from Ip Man or Lok Yiu.

[Graham H]

In SLT CK BJ we have opening actions that help measure the centerline and elbow space and define the very basic positions.

The same is true of the LDB. An experienced teacher/user should pick the pole up and use techniques that help you measure your hand position and width on the pole before you do anything with it. This is the first thing i look at when accessing my own and others LDB skills.

I think there a very few left who have been taught the LDB from form to application.

Many hold the pole with a grip to far from the end and to wide apart for them to have been taught the Ip Man VT LDB. Many just pick it up and start swinging and thrusting.

Major oversight IMO. And this is just ONE aspect.

If you look a a lot of the Forms out there keep a eye out for the many differences in how the pole is held and ask yourself what downstream effects this has on application.

Those with experience with the pole will know the differences in force that occur between different hand positions and those that have been taught application will feel the major differences from Chi Kwan right through to sparring especially against the BJD.

There are people with fluid looking forms out there, great.
But anyone with experience will know fluid forms with poor hand positions will translate to major problems when actually trying to apply the principals to self protection.... very akin to the shocking BJD forms out there with crazy moves like Gap Do on the centerline.

Its with this idea that i agree with Graham (scary thought)... a lot of the LDB forms etc out there is peoples OWN interpretation rather than it being passed down from Ip Man or Lok Yiu.

How we hold the pole and its connection to the hip through the elbow is important. How we measure off the pole to get the correct grip in the correct position relative to the end and where it sits on two "sweet spots" on the thighs is also important during many actions. The connection of the pole to the body is lacking in most lineages. The just use swinging arms which is ok for the forms but for fighting it is not enough.

Good post Liddel......no need to be scared!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

An experienced teacher/user should pick the pole up and use techniques that help you measure your hand position and width on the pole before you do anything with it. This is the first thing i look at when accessing my own and others LDB skills.

Okay I agre with this wholeheartedly, and as I've been asked to keep on topic I will ask you a question: Do you learn hard and soft pole applications?

I was taught that the pole is primarily Yum Yeurng, it has gong and yau (hard and soft) power development. FME and from exchanges with both my family and Ip family, it is noticable that Ip Mans HK version of the LDBG is hard, preferring the use of a short grip (approx shoulder/waist width) and whereas we do use this with the form, our 1st point is mainly learnt as a yao gwan, with a wider grip. We also use the term 'Lorng Gwan' which is to be seen as a 'wave pole' not Lung as in Dragon

I think there a very few left who have been taught the LDB from form to application.

Agreed 100%

Many hold the pole with a grip to far from the end and to wide apart for them to have been taught the Ip Man VT LDB.

You answer this in your statement. That's Ip Man VT LDB, if you want to call it that, and you must understand that he only taught it this way because of limitations to space whilst in HK. Lok Yiu was one of his most formidable pole players (according to my own Sifu) and I would think you know what I mean by hard/soft pole and how the methods must change in restricted spaces? It's common sense.

Have you heard of any storys of Ip Mans students learning the pole outside?? Practising with eachother fiercly? Maybe even on those roof tops or in the parks? No? Is this because there is nobody still alive that can comment, or simply because this didn't happen?

[Graham H]

Have you heard of any storys of Ip Mans students learning the pole outside?? Practising with eachother fiercly? Maybe even on those roof tops or in the parks? No? Is this because there is nobody still alive that can comment, or simply because this didn't happen?

Yes I have........many stories that have come via Wong Shun Leung through his many students in Europe. Also from students that were trained "outside" under WSL's supervision in Hong Kong.

Hard and soft pole? Wide and short grip? Yip Man only taught it that way because of space? Your stories are getting more and more ludicrous as time goes on.

I wish you would stop trying to blow smoke up peoples asses!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

I wish you would stop trying to blow smoke up peoples asses!

I wish you would stop taking such a narrow view of my questions dude. Not trying to blow smoke up anyones a$$, I'm asking questions because of the post

Tell me, who trained with WSL while he was learning the pole from Ip Man? I'm interested to know...

And these are the terms I mentioned (albeit pinched from another thread!)

剛 / Gang / Gong = Hard or Rigid

柔 / Rou / Yau = Soft

[Liddel]

Do you learn hard and soft pole applications?

Spencer, the way i learnt was to use the pole for fighting. So in one respect -Yes- i learnt hard and soft applications, because hard and soft applications is a bi product of pole use full stop.
But in reference to your question - did i learnt hard applications one day then on another we said lets look at soft applications -No-

We address application based on needs. Whats given to me vs what do i need to do to protect myself. It all stems from Chi Kwan, just like the H2H applications stem from Chi Sau. and BJD applications stem from Chi Do. If you don't have Chi Sau what you have is Forms and a whole lot of guess work with regard to application.

That said all guess work aint bad, i mean fighting isnt rocket science as much as some VT folk like to pretend, but just dont tell me it came from Ip Mans ghost

How many BJD and LDB form videos can you find around the net ?
How many Chi DO and Chi Kwan videos can you find ?

So disproportionate IMO, ask yourself why ? and then ask yourself which is more important form or application ?

Such a shame applications are for the most part lost, but just like speaking another language if you don't use it every day...

it is noticable that Ip Mans HK version of the LDBG is hard, preferring the use of a short grip

Im not that familiar with families outside my own spencer so take this with a grain of salt -

Despite what many people say about the inconsistent teaching of YM which i think is BS. We as YM VT people don't take kindly to flying elbow and rely heavily on elbow position for power generation...

So because we ARE consistent in theory and application - this of course this lends to the pole. A longer grip lessens or in some cases eliminates the ability to use the elbows to generate power.
So you have to use other sources of power hence a small change in grip can make a big change in other Kwan techniques IME. Short grip makes the pole more alive for us thrusts can have more power in the tip you have greater control over direction from the front hand and more leverage with certain habbit actions IMO.

And if you look at BJD techs against the pole, we look to cut the hands and get in close. Wider grips make for a closer target for the Sword user... You can lessen your own range advantage

Have you heard of any storys of Ip Mans students learning the pole outside??

Im a VT guy, of course i've heard stories... thats all most of our community care about.

What i care about is abilities, and that said - with regard to the LDB - if you cant walk.. then i find it hard to believe you can run (not you specifically spencer )

[GlennR]

Spencer, the way i learnt was to use the pole for fighting. So in one respect -Yes- i learnt hard and soft applications, because hard and soft applications is a bi product of pole use full stop.
But in reference to your question - did i learnt hard applications one day then on another we said lets look at soft applications -No-

We address application based on needs. Whats given to me vs what do i need to do to protect myself. It all stems from Chi Kwan, just like the H2H applications stem from Chi Sau. and BJD applications stem from Chi Do. If you don't have Chi Sau what you have is Forms and a whole lot of guess work with regard to application.

That said all guess work aint bad, i mean fighting isnt rocket science as much as some VT folk like to pretend, but just dont tell me it came from Ip Mans ghost

How many BJD and LDB form videos can you find around the net ?
How many Chi DO and Chi Kwan videos can you find ?

So disproportionate IMO, ask yourself why ? and then ask yourself which is more important form or application ?

Such a shame applications are for the most part lost, but just like speaking another language if you don't use it every day...



Im not that familiar with families outside my own spencer so take this with a grain of salt -

Despite what many people say about the inconsistent teaching of YM which i think is BS. We as YM VT people don't take kindly to flying elbow and rely heavily on elbow position for power generation...

So because we ARE consistent in theory and application - this of course this lends to the pole. A longer grip lessens or in some cases eliminates the ability to use the elbows to generate power.
So you have to use other sources of power hence a small change in grip can make a big change in other Kwan techniques IME. Short grip makes the pole more alive for us thrusts can have more power in the tip you have greater control over direction from the front hand and more leverage with certain habbit actions IMO.

And if you look at BJD techs against the pole, we look to cut the hands and get in close. Wider grips make for a closer target for the Sword user... You can lessen your own range advantage



Im a VT guy, of course i've heard stories... thats all most of our community care about.

What i care about is abilities, and that said - with regard to the LDB - if you cant walk.. then i find it hard to believe you can run (not you specifically spencer )

Nice post Liddel

[Graham H]

I wish you would stop taking such a narrow view of my questions dude. Not trying to blow smoke up anyones a$$, I'm asking questions because of the post

Tell me, who trained with WSL while he was learning the pole from Ip Man? I'm interested to know...

And these are the terms I mentioned (albeit pinched from another thread!)

剛 / Gang / Gong = Hard or Rigid

柔 / Rou / Yau = Soft

Whatever! We don't practice the same Martial Art so how can we confer?

[LoneTiger108]

Such a shame applications are for the most part lost, but just like speaking another language if you don't use it every day...

Well, I'm happy to say applications are very much alive fme dude but all said and done, I find your post one of the good ones (as usual!)

Im not that familiar with families outside my own spencer so take this with a grain of salt -

I would ask why not? But I don't want to veer the thread off subject (again lol!)

A longer grip lessens or in some cases eliminates the ability to use the elbows to generate power.

Totally incorrect imho, just a different type of power, hence 'soft' power.

Short grip makes the pole more alive for us thrusts can have more power in the tip you have greater control over direction from the front hand and more leverage with certain habbit actions IMO.

I don't agree with all of that, more alive:yes, greater control:no. imho of course!

And if you look at BJD techs against the pole, we look to cut the hands and get in close. Wider grips make for a closer target for the Sword user... You can lessen your own range advantage

Only if you're the 6 million dollar man and move in slo-mo

On the point about videos and their availability I agree, which is why I have asked a number of times for people who post on this subject to show us what they mean (you included lol!) and I bet that when you have put something to camera and review it back you will understand why there isn't much of it online.

Even my own example on here is 10 years old, but it's better than sharing NOTHING like so many others (and I don't mean you either!)

[LoneTiger108]

Whatever! We don't practice the same Martial Art so how can we confer?

My point made...