Luk Dim Boon Gwan

[Eric_H]

Whatever.

There appears to be only two lineages on this forum who have complete confidence in what was taught to them. My own being one of them. That ought to tell you something right there....

How does acknowledging that other people can be good at fighting translate into having no confidence in WC?

I am all for being confident in what I know - but my confidence is based on not what I was shown by my teacher, but what I personally can (and cannot) do based on exchanges with as many fighters from different styles as I can get to play with (sparring or otherwise). You are refusing to even acknowledge that people who do longfist can be good at fighting.

That is not confidence, that is arrogance.

Which, is somewhat comical when as I already noted, there are longfist guys who have considerable fame in tearing WC guys apart. But i suppose there's always the passive-aggressive out of "they probably weren't taught right..."

[GlennR]

Like my Teacher says..."there is no time in fighting to think of such things".....

True, but that would pertain to all legitimate fighting arts i'd think

Firstly we must have a strategy but there are too many factors to give one solid answer that fits all questions. There is no perfect world!
If we abide by the Ving Tsun concept of Loi lau, Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung, in the first instance it tells us to intercept the opponents movement with your own. To bring into the conversation what Sean was saying, Long Pole training increases our start speed, punching power and punching precision so this gives us the tools to meet the opponent with something that in theroy should be structurally better than what being thrown be it kick or punch.
When somebody is kicking they are on one leg so their balance is more than 50% less than with two feet on the ground. If our timing is right, the way in which we move is right and we disrupt the opponents center of gravity then this should take the sting from the kicks. Maybe we can pre-empt it in which case the kick may not get thrown at all.

So you'd agree its all about bridging the gap?

There are difficulties in fighting a kicker because the leg is longer than the arm just as with fighting a person who is throwing arcing punches. Most systems of Ving Tsun are using Tan Sau to defend against these actions but this is bad thinking.

Yep, not a real good choice

Without LSJC and putting ourselves inside the opponents firing line then we will always get hit eventually. My Teacher also says that if things are too 50/50 then it is not good for fighting. It takes skill which is what Ving Tsun should teach us and improve but the outcome or what gets thrown is not decided until the fight is over.

All good principles G, but thats my current problem problem with the WC way of thinking...... principles are fine but i need sound, reliable and effective techniques to impliment those principles.
To be honest, i still dont have an answer to my question.

Oh, and excuse the change of topic last night, i was into my 4th beer when i started typing

[Sean66]

Christ on a crutch you guys, can't we stick to the theme of this **** thread.

If someone wants to start another thread, great. But this one is about the subject of the original video posted: the long pole.

Doesn't anyone have anything to say about it? Graham offered some insights into the benefits of training the long pole. Doesn't anyone else here train the thing?

Here is some basic info, just to get things back on track:


Che Gwan Kuen – Pulling apart pole punches.
Gwan Ma – Pole stance.
Ji Ng Ma – « Meridian » stance, refers to the pole « en garde » position.

1. 'Fong Lung Cheung' - Thrusting.

2. 'Ping Cheung' - Pushing the pole, like lan sau.

3. 'Leung Yi' - Sort of like jaat sau, defending with the pole and remaining in position for attack.

4. 'Lau Soi' - Stirring. Sort of like bong sau.

5. 'Kam Gwan' - Covering.

6. 'Dang Gwan' - Ascending pole. Lifting action at beginning of form.

0.5 'Che Cheung' - Descending pole.

With the long pole we strive to bring the accelerated mass of the weapon into the small area at the tip, or a reduced area on the surface (as in the case of Ping Cheung). This requires us to pay close attention to the position of the feet, the pelvis and the elbows. Easy to see how this can help develop the coordination between the lower and upper body, thus improving whole body movement and, in turn, punching power and precision.

It's worth to note that basic long pole or spear exercises are used in many cma as general body conditioning methods.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Sean66;1131837]
Here is some basic info, just to get things back on track:


Che Gwan Kuen – Pulling apart pole punches.
Gwan Ma – Pole stance.
Ji Ng Ma – « Meridian » stance, refers to the pole « en garde » position.

1. 'Fong Lung Cheung' - Thrusting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pole is known quite well in my lineage. Beginning students can do basic drills with it.


Advanced students can do the whole thing- all the above and more.


I have to go and work out early this morning. I will say more later Sean.

joy

[k gledhill]

Lok Dim Bon Kwun in comparison to the bare hand techniques' training,
adopts the same principle, which stresses
the practical aspect of a motion (technique) instead of its beauty.
Reaching the level where the technical concepts (rules) are in agreement
with practical skills is a must.
Every move (technique) has to be very precise.

Wong Shun Leung

[Sean66]

GlennR,
You Aussies and your beer! There's a love story for ya!
True that a couple of pints may not be good for internet-fu (which requires fine motor skills for typing and un-clouded eyesight) but I bet it's good for wrestlin' crocs!!

I see what your saying, but the point is not that you have to first get to the weapons in order to develop a good punch. It's simply that the weapons training, above and beyond learning how to fight with them, is yet another way of improving your empty hands work.

It's like hitting a truck tire with a huge sledgehammer. You don't have to do this to have a decent punch, but it can help in developing your "connectedness", which in turn can give you some extra bang.
The long pole is not easy to wield (I train with one that's a bit heavier than the usual) and at the same time it demands great accuracy. The combination can really help in fine tuning your coordination and in focusing your power.

And like I said before, it's fun to train with.

[k gledhill]

Fair enough. I certainly didn't mean to come across as critical, just offering a perspective into the benefits of weapons training for empty hand over and above the usual physical strength arguments. As you say the physical strength bits can be trained in other ways and don't need weapons. The magnifying effect on the need for absolute precision is the bit I love though and is what always makes me smile when I see footage of people waving the pole around all over the shop.

Glad to hear another concurring observation on pole waving. it equates to 'chasing' in my eyes.

[Sean66]

First and foremost the pole is there to fight with.

It is not there to train raw physical strength, but a specific type of functional strength...the strength you need to wield the long pole accurately!

In addition, if you perform the pole movements correctly, you'll be working the same body connections (elbows and hips, for example) that you need for executing a good vertical punch.

The long pole forces you to generate power accurately to extreme distances. This requires good whole-body movement, which will in turn benefit all of your work.

[LoneTiger108]

First and foremost the pole is there to fight with.

True. But I would say that first and foremost the pole is there to assist our knives in training. They compliment eachother, like a yum yeurng (yin yang) and if you sacrifice one over the other you are doing the system injustice imho.

[Graham H]

.....from Barry Lee..

It was often said in the early days and while I was training 24 years ago, that before you learned the knife you had to have "perfect hands". The Bat Chum Do is based on the hand movements of Ving Tsun, with some very important theoretical and practical differences and there is no room for error when you use the knife as it was intended. When you fight hand to hand with someone you will always be hit, you may be hurt momentarily and able to continue fighting, or you may be injured more seriously, but chances are that you will recover and be able to fight again. When you use the knives you are in combat with an opponent who also has a weapon, perhaps two and if you make even a simple mistake, if your movements are not totally co-ordinated and perfectly executed you will be cut. You can bleed to death from even a simple looking cut, you can also die from infection and the worst scenario as an example, is that both your heads or guts are lying on the ground.

Whilst we do not have the opportunity today, to use the knives as they were intended, we still practice as if we had to use them in just this way; for this is the esscence of Ving Tsun, to fight to win and practice of the knives is no different. However, once you have the hard, hard practice behind you and understand how to use each movement correctly, you will find that you can practice your knife a little less and concentrate on perfecting your whole Ving Tsun. Learning the knives too early, before you have balance and control of your entire body, very strong waist and near "Perfect Hands" can also lead to a deterioration in technique and incorrect application of your movements. The weight of any weapon if practiced to the point where you and your muscles are becoming tired, can result in dropping of hands, degradation in balance and control and in short, the practice of incorrect movements.

If you know and understand the Ving Tsun Knives you will know how and why the knife movements differ from the hand movements and realise why these knives (particularly if they are the correct weight for combat against someone else with a weapon) can easily draw your open hands out of line if practised too early.

I say to all those wanting to learn the knife, to ask yourself just how good your hands really are. "Can you co-ordinate your whole body as one unit and really draw the power from your waist. Can you feel your movement or do you still have to think about what you are doing?!" If your hands are not as good as they can be, then forget the knives and go back to hard training that will result in your really being able to use your Ving Tsun to win.

[Vajramusti]

That is a good excerpt from Barry Lee.

Joy Chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

And the guys you mentioned dont seem so insecure in what they do that they have to keep rubbishing other lineages...... go figure hey

And there it is Glenn!

If you believe as I do that we are all under the one Wing Chun tree, all the lineages are expressing are different branches of the same tree, with different leaves and flowers.

Now whether the roots started in England, USA, Australia, Europe or Hong Kong to the Mainland really doesn't matter so much to me! It's how many of us can be sheltered by our Wing Chun tree!!

That's the security you talk of imho

[anerlich]

but if phil, anelich and his sifu (and even victor before he got banned) are anything to go by, he at least turns out knowledgeable and competent students who actually walk the walk as you say

Thanks Frost, but spell my name right next time

[GlennR]

And there it is Glenn!

If you believe as I do that we are all under the one Wing Chun tree, all the lineages are expressing are different branches of the same tree, with different leaves and flowers.

Now whether the roots started in England, USA, Australia, Europe or Hong Kong to the Mainland really doesn't matter so much to me! It's how many of us can be sheltered by our Wing Chun tree!!

That's the security you talk of imho

Nice sentiment Spencer but not for me.

I have some great friends ive made in WC, in fact MA in general, but ive never bought the one lineage-one family thing.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Trimmed down the thread quite a bit but hopefully did not take anything really worthwhile away.

Guys try to stay on topic and stop the petty insults and d*** measuring.

If you can't stay on topic and remain civil then the thread will be closed again and the guilty parties will face repercussions which could include being banned.

Play nice..........................................Please