Luk Dim Boon Gwan

[Graham H]

Actually, here's ME doing a 'version' of our form, but this was 10 years ago now!! How I love churning all that flag waving over in my memory!!

Look Dim Boon Gwan Toh Lo - 2min 05sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_5S...el_video_title

FYI Sean66 @ 2min 33sec is our 'shoot'

That's not Ving Tsun. It's Wushu! Ving Tsun pole please Spence! If your pole has improved in 10 years and looks a bit more like other Ip Man lineages then lets have a look. No point in offering stuff of Goh. That's not Ving Tsun either.

G

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer what are you doing in the circle of death at 2:33 ? its not VT pole....its a spear with common spearing techniques...Did you get shown this as VT pole ?
not having a go, question.

And it is your word against my Sigungs? Not having a go but you see where I'm coming from?

Yes, this is a 'version' of our pole form, which is Wing Chun. Again, one of the reasons there is/was little publicity on this form from our family is out of respect for Ip Man and what he done. This is not Ip Mans pole set, it belongs to Wing Chun.

Is it really that difficult to understand?

[LoneTiger108]

Lee Shings first Wing Chun Sifu (according to Legend lol!) was Ng Jung Sok, so he was Ip Mans junior brother. This is more than likely where he picked up his pole form. He also had a 3.5 point form from the Fung family and he never taught Ip Mans revised version as far as I know, but he may have helped in it's creation! Lok Yiu (and others) also has very distinctive pole plays from my research.

What I know is my Sifus interpretation of Lee Shings Wing Chun, and considering he was with Lee Shing from 1965-1991 (daily!) I'm more inclined to think what he has is good old fashioned Wing Chun Martial Art. (yes! Yongchunquan Wushu!!)

I think you need to consider that what you know is Ip Mans simplified 'Ving Tsun' that was again simplified by WSL and PB in turn. What Ip Man done was refine and take away from the classical versions he learnt. Some would agree that that is fine, but others would say he stripped the system of it's origins, creating a new modern hybrid of what it once was.

Lee Shing was recognised as a National Treasure by the Chinese government at the time, for his work to preserve the older traditions like medicine and martial arts. These are just facts. His relationship with Ip Man was very special according to his closest students, but it was restrictive and that's where his students kind of 'rebelled' later o n in the eighties. It's a loooong story, but one which I know and maybe you do not because you are not interested to learn who 'really' brought Wing Chun to Europe on behalf of Ip Man?

But that's just my opinion too of course

[LoneTiger108]

Just look at the variety of Sifus he had access to, and they were all Wing Chun practitioners Graham!

Not that I want to deter the thread from the Wing Chun Pole methods, but I do get tired of silly questions and assumptions sometimes.

[LoneTiger108]

Getting back on subject...

So do any other WSL guys practise these drills??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPnON...layer_embedded

[Sean66]

Yes, although with slightly different body mechanics.

You can take any movement/technique from the form and drill it x number of times solo. Then you can drill it with a partner. Then you can start trying to integrate it into a bit of sparing.

By the way, Spencer, your pole form does look like more of a standard staff or short spear form. Perhaps this is due to the length of the weapon. With a shorter pole/spear you'll be able to use both ends in parrying and attacking, whereas a really long, tapered weapon is primarily for the thrust and very slight parrying movements to regain the line of attack.

Note, I'm not saying it's bad. Just different than most wing chun long pole forms I've seen.

[LoneTiger108]

By the way, Spencer, your pole form does look like more of a standard staff or short spear form. Perhaps this is due to the length of the weapon.

I appreciate your opinion, and you are correct. Almost all of my earlier training was done with a shorter gwan, but this was because longer ones were not available!!

My later filming has the full length white wax pole featured This performance was just a blitz at the SENI show.

With a shorter pole/spear you'll be able to use both ends in parrying and attacking, whereas a really long, tapered weapon is primarily for the thrust and very slight parrying movements to regain the line of attack.

The key word there is 'primarily' imho. I understand your view but I ask you this: Do you have a half 'point' or the 'half pole' in your form? You see, I have 6 points and the half pole/stick.

And what do you do when someone breaks your long range distance? With little choppers??

Note, I'm not saying it's bad. Just different than most wing chun long pole forms I've seen.

That will be because Lee Shings pole methods have never really been seen or explained to the public! Except through Austin Gohs teachings, and he himself has kept his pole to very close students I believe.

My Uncle Joe Lee is formidable with the pole and he also has quite a few close students but we all do keep quite low key. I am the loudest of us all!!

[Sean66]

That will be because Lee Shings pole methods have never really been seen or explained to the public! Except through Austin Gohs teachings, and he himself has kept his pole to very close students I believe.

Well, if these methods are anything like what you showed in the demo, they're just typical short spear/staff techniques than can be seen in any number of systems.
But, hey, that's fine. Why do people always think that if something is rarely seen or kept only behind "closed" doors that it is somehow superior?

It's not the number of special techniques you have, but your mastery of a few simple ones that counts.

And what do you do when someone breaks your long range distance? With little choppers??

This is what that lateral striking is for. Can be seen at the beginning of the form. And if you fudge that up, you can always drop the **** thing and run for it!

[anerlich]

Why do people always think that if something is rarely seen or kept only behind "closed" doors that it is somehow superior?

It's often inferior or at least questionable due to the lack of exposure to pressure testing.

Security through obscurity doesn't work in cryptography. Or martial arts.

If you want effective techniques, put them out there and have them scrutinised and tested by all comers. The best techniques are those that still work high percentage even if the other guy knows them.

[LoneTiger108]

Well, if these methods are anything like what you showed in the demo, they're just typical short spear/staff techniques than can be seen in any number of systems.

Okay, you could be right. But show me any system that has the same form? You will not find any, because it belongs to Wing Chun Or shall I say the Lee Shing family, to be precise. Inherited through Leung Yee Tai, according to the formal story.

But, hey, that's fine. Why do people always think that if something is rarely seen or kept only behind "closed" doors that it is somehow superior?

Seriously, I am not trying to come across as having anything 'superior' at all. In fact, I'm only putting my opinion, and experience here because I personally feel that my Sigung is, dare I say, quite under appreciated considering the time and effort he put into promtoing Ip Man and Wing Chun in Europe. This too is because he specifically shunned the money and fame thing because he simply enjoyed teaching as a hobby, it wasn't a business for him. Nothing 'secret' or 'closed door' about it.

Like many others here, because we are a little different there seems to be the same allregic reaction to our approach But this is all I am trying to say; we are a little different, that's all. Nothing to do with 'superiority'.

This is what that lateral striking is for. Can be seen at the beginning of the form. And if you fudge that up, you can always drop the **** thing and run for it!

Yes, this 'lateral striking' you refer to is Lan Gwan, or barring stick which is practised more in our boon gwan sets. Even a longer pole can be turned from its middle, as it's only the angles that change.

Trying to utilise this method of the pole from 'one end' is quite dangerous, especially when you hold the very end of the pole, but it's still possible and has it's purpose, but I would say it's not as thorough as our approach. In general Wushu, they would call it Faa Gwan, or flower stick, because they don't really understand it or break it down. It's used as a distraction rather than specific close range attack/defence.

If you analyze the arm motions, this method is key to training all the looksau circles Again, just my interpretation.

[Grumblegeezer]

It's often inferior or at least questionable due to the lack of exposure to pressure testing.

If you want effective techniques, put them out there and have them scrutinised and tested by all comers. The best techniques are those that still work high percentage even if the other guy knows them.

In my lineage, the luk dim boon kwun techniques are also "kept close". Only high-level students are taught our version of the form, chi-kwun, and applications. There really isn't any testing, except with your own sifu and clan. I wonder what would happen if all the secrecy stuff were thrown out the window and people tried getting together to really test how this stuff works... maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

[anerlich]

In my lineage, the luk dim boon kwun techniques are also "kept close". Only high-level students are taught our version of the form, chi-kwun, and applications. There really isn't any testing, except with your own sifu and clan. I wonder what would happen if all the secrecy stuff were thrown out the window and people tried getting together to really test how this stuff works... maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

It's not at all difficult (well, not hard to arrange) with unarmed arts (or, yes, pedants, unarmed aspects of "complete" arts like WC). Boxers, kickboxers, judoka, wrestlers, BJJ and MMA guys do it all the time.

Weapons are a bit more of a problem ... the sports chanbara stuff you used to see a decade or so ago was pretty lame as the types of sport weapons they used were more like whips than anything else.

Fencing is definitely within the Western MA tradition, and kendo the Eastern, You could argue these aren't realistic, but neither is what passes for "weapons sparring" in many places.

The Savate org in Oz held a La Canne tournament her not so long ago. I didn't see it, but it sounded like a success and a step in the right direction.

And of course, there's always the Dog Brothers and their approach.

[Eric_H]

maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

You'll need some hefty hand/wrist and throat guards. Even the throat guards on the escrima helmets I use wouldn't stand up to a well driven biu gwan. Probably a steel gorget, escrima helmet, lacrosse gloves, zoombang armor/joint guards and it could be done.

You're looking at a $500+ armor bill per person though. Even then I'm not sure the top of the head protection on the escrima helmets is enough.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

It might be cheaper to make a Shinai-style Luk Dim Boon Gwun and use Kendo Gear.

[LoneTiger108]

I wonder what would happen if all the secrecy stuff were thrown out the window and people tried getting together to really test how this stuff works... maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

It's possible, but even with the safest protection methods around you have to expect to be hurt imho. This is weaponry we're talking about here. And the LDBG is the king of all pole methods! It's a killing method, so in hindsight competitions seem a bit crazy.

You must also question 'why'? Why do we want to compete against eachother? Is it really neccessary?

It might be cheaper to make a Shinai-style Luk Dim Boon Gwun and use Kendo Gear.

Hmm You mean make our pole much lighter and limit our mobility and vision with 'armour'? I wouldn't want that.

What is wrong with skill based competitions, rather than fighting? Showing your level of skill in a 'test' of sorts seems to at least be a way for us all to see and share what we do.

Fighting for competition with blades or poles seems a bit restrictive and ultimately destructive to the original methods Wing Chun is known for imho. Do we really want to see that?