Building strength the TCMA way

[sanjuro_ronin]

I assume something like this will work too.

http://www.robbinssports.com/century...my-p-6795.html

I like yours better

[bawang]

building strength the tcma way:

three eyed god lifts the mountain: squat
holding the heavens: shoulder press
thousand pound crusher: squat press
hunyuan ball: atlas ball
presenting the iron seal/diamond god uproots tree: deadlift

[Jimbo]

If anything using modern methods of external strength training alongside traditional methods is even more important in this day and age, most old time TCMA guys came from a rural background, lifting heavy things and building strength was all part of their day to day work it is not these days, thus they had a good base of strength and endurance to work from

This is an excellent point not often mentioned. My father and uncles grew up on the farm, worked a professional tuna boat, and did other labor their whole lives, and although I never saw any of them do any actual ST exercises, they remained impressively strong their entire lives, even into old age. Hard labor builds not only strength but physical/mental ruggedness as well. That's the kind of strength that old-time CMA practitioners had. In addition, many of those practitioners did system-specifec, specialized ST methods as well. People nowadays who do not come from such a background, cannot discount the importance of ST for their MA.

[bawang]

weight training is rarely known or taught because they were considered advanced excercises, which is ironic

[IronFist]

Decent thread.

I agree that strength training is often neglected in TMA.

As far as developing raw strength (the ability to lift as much weight as possible), nothing beats powerlifting style training for low, heavy reps.

As with anything it depends on your goals. There's a reason sprinters don't train by running long distances and why marathoners don't do barbell squats.

But as long as the people are doing something to get stronger, that puts them way ahead of the "traditional" TMA crew who believes such nonsense as:

- muscles make you slow
- muscles make you inflexible
- "lift with your tendons"
- you don't need muscle strength because you have qi
- you don't need to use strength; you need to use technique (sure, technique beats strength if the other guy is a noob, but if you're both equally good, then strength will often determine the winner, and I dare say there are situations where a very skilled dude who is weak may be defeated by a strong noob, eg., a 140 pound TMA black belt fighting a 250 pound weightlifting street thug)

On that last point, many skinny/weak people who have only trained with other skinny/weak people in their schools are in for a surprise the first time they fight someone who is actually big and strong. This goes triple if they've never trained against a resisting opponent (eg. in a school full of people who do tap sparring and leave their arm extended so you can do a 10 hit combo after your opponent punches).

Once we can accept the fact that we all need to do weight training, then we can argue amongst ourselves about which way is correct

I fully agree with John Allen (of Green Dragon Studios, who used to write for Inside Kung Fu) who said that the majority of kung fu students lack the strength required to make their techniques work.

[IronFist]

Also, weightlifting is awesome and helps prevent injury from other situations which might otherwise cause injury, such as lifting something heavy.

[Vash]

Also, weightlifting is awesome and helps prevent injury from other situations which might otherwise cause injury, such as lifting something heavy.

If you would internalize that strength, the heavy would lift you.

[IronWeasel]

I fully agree with John Allen (of Green Dragon Studios, who used to write for Inside Kung Fu) who said that the majority of kung fu students lack the strength required to make their techniques work.

You need ENOUGH muscle to make them work. But you don't have to grow to excess and follow a bodybuilder paradigm, as Sanjuro pointed out.

You still need SPEED. I put on 40 pounds since I began lifting. when it came time to break for my rank, I figured it was a sure thing.

I was so stiff, that I bounced right off the first try. I just tried to muscle my way through the blocks.

Gain some muscle...add some speed.

[IronFist]

I've never seen a case where muscular size limited speed or flexibility.

Regarding speed, while the new muscle weighs more, it's also giving you more strength with which to move it. It's not like you just strapped on some weights while keeping your old strength levels. It's similar to doing an engine swap in a car and saying "oh, that new, bigger engine with more displacement weighs more. It's going to slow me down!" Well, now your car weighs more, but you're making a lot more horsepower, too, so the extra weight doesn't matter.

Then there's the aspect of strength/speed that is neurological in nature and has nothing to do with muscle size.

But I think it makes sense to continue training your martial skills while you are building size, otherwise it might feel different and take you a little while to get used to your new body, so to speak.

Then again, most people do not have the genetics to even approach the levels of "oh no, I'm putting on too much muscle."

[ginosifu]

I've never seen a case where muscular size limited speed or flexibility.

Then again, most people do not have the genetics to even approach the levels of "oh no, I'm putting on too much muscle."

I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:

I agree 100%. However, my experience with peeps who lift is 75%-80% lift improperly for MA. Many lift and get bulky, especially in their arms and shoulders. In my personal experiences, bulky arms and shoulders reduce free swinging arm rotation from the shoulder joint. The CMA I learned requires arm swing techniques such cup choy or dai fan che to swivel from the shoulder and not be "muscled thru". This "muscling thru" is the wrong type of energy for this particular technique.

Strength is very important and increasing strength thru various resistance programs is great. I can't emphasize enough on proper strength training and stretching to reduce this type of attitude of I can just lift more and get stronger so I don't have to worry about technique or style.

ginosifu

It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

ginosifu

[Kevin73]

I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:



It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

ginosifu

I would say that is more of a result of not stretching. All the cases I have seen in which someone was "muscle bound" was because all they did was lift hard and heavy which tears down the tissue and never had a stretching component to their lifting to lengthen the tissue back.

[Kevin73]

building strength the tcma way:

three eyed god lifts the mountain: squat
holding the heavens: shoulder press
thousand pound crusher: squat press
hunyuan ball: atlas ball
presenting the iron seal/diamond god uproots tree: deadlift

Good post, I have looked at many of the "old methods" and you are quite right, they almost all have a modern strength training lift equivolant.

Even if you go to the old Okinawan training methods that aren't used much they used items that are replicated by modern dumbbells and barbells in many cases.

As always there is nothing new under the sun...and what was old will become new again and vice versa.

[Kevin73]

I think that part of the lack of strength training in many modern "traditional arts" (even though traditionally they had them) is due to people not wanting to work hard.

It's easier to market your skills that anyone can do it and the infamous "90 lb. weakling" beating up the big strong guy with no effort than it is to say how hard you are going to have to work to get really good at it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Over the years I have found this to be the case:
With proper ST, one never loses speed or flexibility and does actually gain.
Most people NEVER get proper ST advice.
Most people that start doing weights do so to get bigger and stronger, in that ordr and they tend to do "hypertrophy" ( mass) inducing programs AND eat accordingly.
They also, at times, sacrifice their MA for ST ( I know that I to have been guilty of this).
As a result, they get bigger, stronger, but slower and more "stiff".

Of course we have REAL world examples of "bulky" but still super fast ( sprinters) and super flexible ( Gymnasts and Modern MA athletes).

An ideal ST protocol for a MA NOT looking to increase mass and weight ( they go hand-in-hand) but looking to get strong is a low rep/high intensity ( heavy weights) followed by stretching after the routine ( along with consistent MA training).
In other words: a customized powerlifting routine done 2X a week and MA training the rest of the time.

We need to always remember that high weight and low reps = strength and very little mass.
Moderate weight and moderate reps = mass and some strength

High reps and low weight = muscular endurance, low strength and low mass

[wenshu]

something[/i] to get stronger, that puts them way ahead of the "traditional" TMA crew who believes such nonsense as:

- muscles make you slow
- muscles make you inflexible
- "lift with your tendons"
- you don't need muscle strength because you have qi
- you don't need to use strength; you need to use technique (sure, technique beats strength if the other guy is a noob, but if you're both equally good, then strength will often determine the winner, and I dare say there are situations where a very skilled dude who is weak may be defeated by a strong noob, eg., a 140 pound TMA black belt fighting a 250 pound weightlifting street thug)

The fuck says this shit? Seriously. I've never heard of anyone in cma saying anything like this until I came here. I understand you might still be a little resentful because you got royally grafted but please stop projecting this utter bullshit on to us.