Building strength the TCMA way

[Lucas]

Over the years I have found this to be the case:
With proper ST, one never loses speed or flexibility and does actually gain.

this has been my experience. I didn't start any weight training until I was an adult and after I had already been training kungfu for some time. I came here and got advice, and used it. I got stronger, a little bigger and I got faster. It elevated my power in every respect. I'm not a power lifter or bodybuilder, I just try to supplement my martial art.

[TenTigers]

if you lift properly, using full range of motion, you can actually increase flexibility, rather than lose it.
If you train explosive movements, you can increase speed.
When you are powerlifting, the act of getting the weight in motion from a standstill is actually an explosive movement, although to the eye it may not seem so.
Stiff, musclebound people in Martial Arts are usually the case of a non-martial artist, who trained with weights first, rather than the other way around. Once you are trained, you know how to relax.

[IronFist]

The fuck says this shit? Seriously. I've never heard of anyone in cma saying anything like this until I came here. I understand you might still be a little resentful because you got royally grafted but please stop projecting this utter bullshit on to us.

In the early 2000s, this training forum was super active with dozens of posts per day or more in the most active threads.

The were a lot of people who would go on and on about how weightlifting is bad for the reasons I stated.

Back in the day, nearly every TMAist I spoke with in real life was also that way. In the 90s it was worse, and in the 70s-80s it was horrible.

Now, with the proliferation of MMA, people are starting to realize that "hey, maybe weight training isn't bad" and "holy crap, if I fight a big muscular skilled guy, I'm screwed."

There are still a lot of "traditional" schools, however, that preach the weights are bad/lift with your tendons nonsense. Usually these schools don't spar or train against resisting opponents, either.

If you've never heard that, then you probably train at a pretty good school and associate with other knowledgeable martial artists.

Relax though, dude. This is a friendly forum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All the fastest athletes in the world do strength training and ALL of them use weights in one way or another.
Big muscles don't equal lack of flexibility, case in point the study done that showed olympic lifters to be the most flexible of athletes in the hip and knee area ( if I recall the study correctly) and this:

[IronFist]

I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:

I've never noticed a loss of range of motion, ever. Even in upper echelon bodybuilders, many of them are quite flexible; certainly not less flexible that someone who doesn't lift weights.

Can you give me an example of the area of motion that was lost? For example, someone who used to be able to do x movement/position and then bulked up and now can no longer do x movement/position.

There is no scientific evidence anywhere that increased muscle in the upper arms and shoulders reduces range of motion.

The rare exceptions to this might be elite level bodybuilders when it gets to the point that the actual mass is just getting in the way, but let's not forget that almost nobody has the genetics to get there, not to mention the drug budget or knowledge.

A normal person with normal genetics is in almost no danger of losing flexibility due to muscle mass gain.

This guy certainly doesn't have flexibility issues:




Nor does this guy:




And even if there was a loss in flexibility (there's not), but even if there was, it would be a small price to pay for the benefits that added muscle has in a fight.


If any loss of range of motion occurs, it would occur around this level:




The only way to get there is with:

1) the right genetics
2) the right training
3) the right diet
4) the right drugs

So that's not going to happen for most people, nor is it going to happen accidentally. It's not like you lift weights and end up bulky the next day.


If someone has a healthy amount of muscle, such as this guy, there's not going to be any loss of range of motion unless the person neglected their stretching or something while they were lifting weights:



But most martial artists aren't even in that good of shape, so I really don't think they have anything to worry about.

It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

I guess let's agree to disagree. Again, I've never seen a case where the addition of muscle and/or strength decreased MA performance.

[md1]

Old school ST - Carrying 5 gal pails of mud, 1 in each hand sometimes 2 in each down a plank and then having to lift them over your head and dump them. Carrying / stacking 12” block, stacking 12” block from the ground on the scaffold 5 or 6 high.
Wheelbarrow concrete, pulling yards of concrete with a come along, finishing concrete, any chimney work. I could go on forever.
Muscles worked – chest, back, legs, stomach/core, shoulders and of course a killer grip.

Find a job as a Mason or Mason laborer, you might regret getting yelled at all day..lol but you won’t regret the fact that it puts muscles in your ****.

I don’t know… worked for my MA ST

[ginosifu]

I've never noticed a loss of range of motion, ever. Even in upper echelon bodybuilders, many of them are quite flexible; certainly not less flexible that someone who doesn't lift weights.

Can you give me an example of the area of motion that was lost? For example, someone who used to be able to do x movement/position and then bulked up and now can no longer do x movement/position.

There is no scientific evidence anywhere that increased muscle in the upper arms and shoulders reduces range of motion.

I guess let's agree to disagree. Again, I've never seen a case where the addition of muscle and/or strength decreased MA performance.

IronFist:
I do not have a any degree's in Physical Education or Body Science. I can only speak from personal experience. Whether it from improper Lifting or not stretching I can not say, but in most cases the student that does some type of Arm / Shoulder / Upper Back (Shoulder) etc etc exercise, comes to practice and can no longer swivel from their shoulder joint. Instead of having a straight arm and swinging it from the shoulder (my example would a downward arcing motion some people call this cup choi), instead they bend their arms and muscle it thru.

This may be not from lifting, but the ability to relax the area? It could be from the muscle not being stretched out properly? I don't know exactly why they do it, but time and time after time peeps come into my school, start lifting and get stiff? There have been those who have come and lifted properly who look like those pics Ronin put up of the Running Athlete who is cut, but muscular. And can do demonstrate the proper execution of the arm swinging technique.


ginosifu

[MightyB]

Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it's awkward. There's a difference between a gymnast's body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast's body.

[YouKnowWho]

we want the gymnast's body.

My daughter has the gymnast's body. She doesn't have much muscle, but I can't do what she does.

http://natashawang.com/

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it's awkward. There's a difference between a gymnast's body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast's body.

Yeah, cause a gymanst body isn't bulky at all:

[MightyB]

Narrator: [looking at a Calvin Klein ad on a bus] Is that what a man looks like?
Tyler Durden: [laughs] Self-improvement is masturbation. Now self-destruction...

Body building is a form of masturbation - maybe it's fun, but there's no point. Ooh I lift to get big <cough *g@y cough> Who you trying to impress, other lifters - cuz that's well - you know what that is. Besides - the hot women I know like fit men, they're grossed out by the lifters.

Anyway - the strongest people I know are farmers and furniture movers - they don't look like body builders.

Now if you're doing curls to get better at defending a kimura - or you doing explosive bench to build fast twitch so you can master a transition - there's something to gain by doing so. Bulking and bodybuilding - bah, it's well, you know what it is.

[MightyB]

But most martial artists aren't even in that good of shape, so I really don't think they have anything to worry about.

Me swimming. I don't lift weights, just Judo, Mantis, Jiu Jitsu, and old school exercises.

[bawang]

Narrator: [looking at a Calvin Klein ad on a bus] Is that what a man looks like?
Tyler Durden: [laughs] Self-improvement is masturbation. Now self-destruction...

Body building is a form of masturbation - maybe it's fun, but there's no point. Ooh I lift to get big <cough *g@y cough> Who you trying to impress, other lifters - cuz that's well - you know what that is. Besides - the hot women I know like fit men, they're grossed out by the lifters.

Anyway - the strongest people I know are farmers and furniture movers - they don't look like body builders.

Now if you're doing curls to get better at defending a kimura - or you doing explosive bench to build fast twitch so you can master a transition - there's something to gain by doing so. Bulking and bodybuilding - bah, it's well, you know what it is.

then real kung fu is not for you, because traditional kung fu heroes all have huge rippling muskles.

[MightyB]

then real kung fu is not for you, because traditional kung fu heroes all have huge rippling muskles.

I'm beginning to think you're mistaking your cultures. Maybe you're thinking of the Etruscan Warriors. They engaged in hom osexual relations to bond and cement their relationships with each other. That's not kung fu.

[IronFist]

Body building is a form of masturbation - maybe it's fun, but there's no point. Ooh I lift to get big <cough *g@y cough> Who you trying to impress, other lifters - cuz that's well - you know what that is. Besides - the hot women I know like fit men, they're grossed out by the lifters.

Who cares if someone wants to be a bodybuilder?

Regarding hot women, I would place more emphasis on what women do and respond to rather than what they say. This is totally off topic, but look at how many women say they want a "nice guy," but constantly turn down nice guys in favor of dating outlaw bikers with forearm tattoos? What are they responding to? Look at how many "nice guys" can't find dates. Yet that's what all the hot women say they want.

Ok back on topic.

Most martial artists would **** themselves if they had to fight a bodybuilder.

Who cares if someone wants to be a bodybuilder? Why does anyone care what they look like? Wanting to gain muscle is no different than fat people wanting to lose weight.

Anyway - the strongest people I know are farmers and furniture movers - they don't look like body builders.

Depends on how you define strength. Farmers and furniture movers have great muscular endurance because of the nature of their work, but can they run a marathon? Can they deadlift 3x their bodyweight? Can they box 5 rounds without tiring? There are many definitions of "strong."

Now if you're doing curls to get better at defending a kimura - or you doing explosive bench to build fast twitch so you can master a transition - there's something to gain by doing so. Bulking and bodybuilding - bah, it's well, you know what it is.

lol, I love the anti-bodybuilding crew. Who cares what someone wants to do?

I love how people think big muscles are inflated and useless. I think it's carryover from old school MA nonsense, probably combined with the fact that bodybuilders, when they are beginners in MA, probably over-muscle their way through everything.

But once they learn how to do it correctly, they're much more powerful fighters than smaller guys.

There's also overcorrection from the "functional strength" crew. To bring this idea to the masses, the marketing had to be a bit anti-bodybuilder, because all the public knew about was weightlifting = bodybuilder. I remember in the early 2000s when it happened, there was so much bodybuilder hate. Even Pavel was a bit anti-bodybuilding in his books and programs. I don't think he thinks bodybuilding is stupid or useless; he was just making a point. It's dying down a bit now and things are starting to equalize again.

Also, a lot of people hate on bodybuilding because it's hard. The training is hard, eating enough is hard, etc. It's easier to be skinny and pretend like it's by choice because "bodybuilding sucks and is useless muscle." lol.

I don't want to fight a BJJ blackbelt, but if I had to, I'd rather him be 140 pounds than a 240 pound bodybuilder.