How Does the West Train Internal?

[wenshu]

Pilates has many obvious parallels but I am not sure if it had eastern influences or not. Also related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_culture

[wenshu]

for shits and giggles (isn't it all?). . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force

[wenshu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy

[Pork Chop]

Well, that was really touching. I'm happy everyone got a chance to share.

So, any other ideas about how Western athletes fine tune their mind/body connection? (or whatever the F* you want to call it) 147 responses and only about 5 are relevant. Nice.

P.S. I really don't care how you define internal...go do it somewhere else. I know there are plenty of old threads you could necro for that...you might even discover that everything you wanted to say has already been said...twice.
P.P.S. Thanks to those few of you who tried to get beyond definitions and address the question. I thought it could be an interesting topic, I never intended to start another 'is internal real' thread. That's not interesting...anymore. Maybe it used to be...

My bad, sorry for the hijack.
Yoga, plyometrics, olympic lifts, power lifts, and maybe pilates I think are the best you're probably going to get outside of just perfecting your technique.

[ShaolinDan]

Pork chop, no worries, it's not like it was just you, everyone does it, I was just bit*hin'...I'm sure I've done it too.

Wenshu thanks, interesting posts...I especially like the Odic power one.

Thanks both of you for helping to get back on track.

I didn't really have many ideas about the answer to my question to begin with...I knew 'visualization,' but most of the other 'internal' training methods I've heard about athletes using in the West are crossovers from the East--yoga, meditation (though I guess it really has roots everywhere), tai chi, etc. Except for maybe ballet for football players.

Answers involving lifting are surprises for me, but I can totally see it. Outside of 'Eastern' practices, the thing that taught me the most about 'internal/chi' was long distance running.

I like the answers about just learning by doing the external properly...though I guess there are ways of doing that that it might be interesting to get into.

well, thanks, again, sorry to get crabby. Got to go to bed now, tomorrow's Sunday and lot's of people are going to want me to cook them breakfast.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My bad, sorry for the hijack.
Yoga, plyometrics, olympic lifts, power lifts, and maybe pilates I think are the best you're probably going to get outside of just perfecting your technique.

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

[Pork Chop]

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

Well there's nothing in western sports science that's going to say that it's okay to curve your lower back while under load.

On a side note: for strictly breathing stuff, pilots use some crazy breathing to withstand high g-forces.

[Dragonzbane76]

Yoga, plyometrics, olympic lifts, power lifts, and maybe pilates I think are the best you're probably going to get outside of just perfecting your technique.

I would add wrestling but it's not really a "western" conscript.

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

Why would you say so? because you think it's that or is it taking away from your mythical mystic vodoo to think a western based program could similate eastern.?

[IronFist]

On a side note: for strictly breathing stuff, pilots use some crazy breathing to withstand high g-forces.

That's to physically change blood pressure and delay the passing out point.

It's not really a mind-body connection, nor is it mystic. It just kinda does the same thing as wearing the G-suit.

[IronFist]

Well, that was really touching. I'm happy everyone got a chance to share.

So, any other ideas about how Western athletes fine tune their mind/body connection? (or whatever the F* you want to call it) 147 responses and only about 5 are relevant. Nice.

Closing your eyes and visualizing the movement.

That's about as mind/body as I can think of.

It's been shown that thinking about doing something fires the same neurons as actually doing it, so by thinking about something, you're actually becoming more efficient at it... at least, neurologically.

[Indrafist]

Closing your eyes and visualizing the movement.

That's about as mind/body as I can think of.

It's been shown that thinking about doing something fires the same neurons as actually doing it, so by thinking about something, you're actually becoming more efficient at it... at least, neurologically.

You don't even have to 'think' about it consciously. Ideo-motor phenomenon are unconscious - hence the Ouja-Board, Table-Tilting and other dissociative (from conscious repsonsibility) effects in the so called occult.

The mind-body issue is addressed in the West through such models as 'Dialectical Identity Theory', and through known pathways including psychoneuroendocrinology and psychoneuroimmunology.

The exchange of energy and information between 'mind and body' (ignoring the dualism) is modelled as different levels of analysis, description and explanation - in part an artefact of language - and conceptualised as a nested hierarchy of systems, running from simplest to highest, with the highest containing all lower levels. This is based on Genral Systems Theory. A change at one level may affect changes above and below - hence the so-called 'mind-body' transduction (via 'information substances' such as molecules). In this view mind and brain (for example) are the same thing, just conceived of in different technical languages. This has some value and indeed leverage in discussions about what qi is or is not, and where so called internal begins, and external ends.

The interactions are complex and many people are uncomfortable with the idea of an autonomous 'unconscious' aspect to their 'mind' - imagining that they are only what they know about themselves or 'construct' themselves to be within their reflexive conscious self (personal identity).

The reality of an extensive and autonomous unconscious aspect to the mind, which eventually disappears into the substance of the body itself, is easy to demontsrate experientially. Any mediaclly experienced hypnotist could do it, and indeed it happens everyday in medical settings where the manipulation of naturally ocurring trance states is utilised to regulate 'transductions' between 'mind and body'.

Repeated year in, year out, day-by-day work in that field gives a very different perspective - and it's a valuable one.

[wenshu]

It's not really a mind-body connection, nor is it mystic. It just kinda does the same thing as wearing the G-suit.

Why must you keep insisting that any parallel necessarily has to fall under your narrow definition of mystic?

How is controlling your diaphragm and closing off the airway at the glottis through the use of vocalization not internal?

[wenshu]

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

Pilates has so many parallels it is nearly impossible not to speculate that it's founder was directly influenced by yoga or daoyin/qigong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilates
Breathing is important in the Pilates method. In Return to Life, Pilates devotes a section of his introduction specifically to breathing "Bodily house-cleaning with blood circulation" [13] He saw considerable value in increasing the intake of oxygen and the circulation of this oxygenated blood to every part of the body. This he saw as cleansing and invigorating. Proper full inhalation and complete exhalation were key to this. "Pilates saw forced exhalation as the key to full inhalation." [14] He advised people to squeeze out the lungs as you would wring a wet towel dry.[15] In Pilates exercises, you breathe out with the effort and in on the return.[16] In order to keep the lower abdominals close to the spine; the breathing needs to be directed laterally, into the lower ribcage. Pilates breathing is described as a posterior lateral breathing, meaning that the practitioner is instructed to breathe deep into the back and sides of his or her rib cage. When practitioners exhale, they are instructed to note the engagement of their deep abdominal and pelvic floor muscles and maintain this engagement as they inhale. Pilates attempts to properly coordinate this breathing practice with movement, including breathing instructions with every exercise. “Above all, learn to breathe correctly.” [17]
We breathe on average around 18,000 breaths per day. Posterior lateral breathing is a way of breathing that facilitates bibasal expansion of the ribcage, this encourages the breath to travel down into the lower lungs and cleanse the blood by the exchange of oxygen with carbon dioxide. To understand this concept properly you have to first learn to expand and release the ribcage without deliberately breathing in or out. The in-breath (inhalation) and out-breath(exhalation) should occur instinctively as a result of the conscious expansion and release of the ribcage. This is how you would do this: You place your hands on your lower ribs with you thumbs facing the back of your ribcage, try not to think of breathing, relax your upper abdominals and expand your ribcage to the side against the soft resistance of your hands. Release the expansion of the ribcage by first melting away the area of the clavicles. You can also try this with a scarf around the lower ribcage. You will not be able to expand and release the ribcage effectively if you try to contract your abdominal muscles to expand the ribcage and if you try to contract the ribcage instead of first release it.
Now you should try to duplicate this action with conscious breathing in and breathing out. The in-breath (let it come) widens the ribcage laterally, posteriorly, and superiorly in the ratio of 60:30:10. That is 60% laterally, 30% posteriorly and 10% superiorly. The effect of this ratio of distribution is felt mainly as a back activity. The out-breath (gradually let it out) exits the body first through the gradual and gentle release of tension (intention) in the upper chest and breastbone area, without collapsing the front of the ribcage, and terminates through the activation of the power engine.[18]

Power Engine or Powerhouse

Pilates emphasizes the concepts of core strength and stabilization. Students are taught the concepts of core strength and stabilization, as well as to use your “powerhouse” throughout life’s daily activities. As Joseph Pilates called it, your “powerhouse” is the center of your body or your core and if strengthened, it offers a solid foundation for any movement. This power engine is a muscular network which provides the basic control and stability in the lumbopelvic region, which furthermore consists of the Pelvic floor muscles, the Transversus, the Multifidus, the diaphragm, the muscles of the inner thigh, and the muscles encircling the sitting bone area.
You activate the power engine effectively by hollowing of the deep abdominals and pelvic floor muscles (“Deep muscle corset”), by drawing the navel back into the spine in a zipping-up motion, from the pubic bone to the breast bone thereby engaging the heels, the back of the inner thighs, the deep lower back muscles, and the muscles surrounding the sitting bones and tailbone area without inhibiting the natural function of the diaphragm – that is without holding your breath either from lifting the chest upwards or contracting the chest.
Apart from providing core control and stability to the lumbopelvic region, in the sitting position the power engine elevates the torso and places the centre of gravity at its highest and most efficient position; in prone position it elongates the body bi-directionally to reduce weight in the upper body; in supine position it elongates the body bi-directionally and places the centre of gravity again at its highest and most efficient position.
The Power Engine opens up the vertical dimension of the body by grounding the pelvis to the earth and by elevating the spine towards the sky, much like a tree; the pelvis being the root and the branches being the spine.[18]
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[AJM]

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

You are correct. It's apples and oranges.

[IronFist]

Why must you keep insisting that any parallel necessarily has to fall under your narrow definition of mystic?

How is controlling your diaphragm and closing off the airway at the glottis through the use of vocalization not internal?

The hick maneuver used by fighter pilots to withstand high G's uses a lot of muscular contractions and muscle tensing. Isn't that external by TCMA definitions?