How Does the West Train Internal?

[YouKnowWho]

To me, "internal" means you're doing something different from strictly external movement.

How do you train

- "internal' roundhouse kick or
- "internal" hip throw?

I truly don't know there can be any difference between a Taiji guy doing "hip throw" vs. any external guy doing it.

Please help me on this question that has bothered me for many years.

[Ray Pina]

Also, as an added anomaly, there is the most amount of blah blah blah and the least amount of fitness and ability to fight coming from so called internal martial arts.

In my opinion I found internalists more willing to compare. Partly out of a doofy obligation to lineage honor, and partly out of curiosity if the other guy "had" something.

Almost always this involved friendly taking of balance, domination of limbs. A couple times moderate sparring.

This was preferable to the Wing Chun guys who thought they were going to speed punch me a thousand times because "I trained internal" and wore hippy pants. They wanted to fight... and I beat them silly crying for mercy: "Alright. Alright" Not even thinking about tapping. Pleading to be released.

As for fighting, pure internal. I think there's the children of Master William C.C. Chen and me. Who else has gone out to fight?

[IronFist]

You're just regurgitating the myths. Bagua, taiji, xingyi all employ strength and conditioning, anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.

That's cool. I've seen some strength training stuff, like bagua guys walking around wearing weight vests and stuff.

Why are those 3 arts considered internal, then? Why all the focus on qi generation? Wouldn't the principles of the arts still work without the qi?

It seems like the general idea is the arts won't work without qi skills. The whole "it takes 10 years to be able to fight with tai chi" thing. Seems silly to me.

If the movements are effective for fighting, people should train tai chi and powerlifting and kettlebells. Within 1 year you could crush all those pajama wearing internal development guys that had been training for 10 years. Except you know they would complain: "you're using too much muscle for push hands! You're messing up my sensitivity!"

There are the myths and legends of the tai chi (or other internal art) masters who, because of such qi development, could not be damaged from strikes (iron vest/body) and could cause massive damage with a single strike because of their ability to strike with qi (iron/cotton/whatever palm). They say that level of power takes decades to develop and that's if you're dedicated and do your qi exercises every day.

[David Jamieson]

In my opinion, anyone's training will benefit more by shedding the pseudo-intellectual dross and going for the methods that are cut and dried and produce the results you want.

Don't know what you want? get out and go think about it, you can't window shop your way to fitness and kung fu. You need a plan, you need to work towards it and you need to recognize and maintain when you achieve it.

In anything.

Good Kung Fu is pretty intense training. If you spend a lot of time discussing the merits of heel breathing vs carry the moon qigong, you are probably in a cult center.

If you spend a lot of time sweating and working, then you are in the right place.

It's as simple as that for me.

[IronFist]

using 'qi.'

Let's not argue about the definition of internal vs external, or qi, it will never end...Just looking for the Western training methods that correspond to (or don't) Eastern 'internal' methods whatever, you[the poster] think that means...

No, powerlifters are not using qi to assist in their lifts.

[ShaolinDan]

Honestly, to me (and I'm no expert, but I still think I'm right) you're doing something internally whenever you are in 'the zone.' Don't ask me to define 'the zone.' (And please don't pick a bone) So...how does the 'Western' athlete train that? Or doesn't he/she?

So far I've heard 'visualization.' Anyone got anything else good?

[David Jamieson]

No, powerlifters are not using qi to assist in their lifts.

well, by my understanding of qi, yes they are by merit of being alive.

[IronFist]

How do you train

- "internal' roundhouse kick or
- "internal" hip throw?

I truly don't know there can be any difference between a Taiji guy doing "hip throw" vs. any external guy doing it.

Please help me on this question that has bothered me for many years.

You don't.

A roundhouse kick is external.

So is a hip throw.

I guess if a taiji guy does a hip throw he's using qi to assist in some way that a Judo guy or a sambo guy is not.

Unless the taiji guy is just running qi through his body and happens to do an external hip throw that doesn't require any qi. And in that case, it's not internal, either.

[ShaolinDan]

Waaaaaah!!!! Gosh, ask a simple question...

[YouKnowWho]

A roundhouse kick is external. So is a hip throw.

If a Taiji guy cannot execute an "internal"

- hip throw (throw)
- roundhouse kick (kick), or
- arm bar (lock),

that means "internal" can only apply on "arm strike (punch)", 1/4 of the total TCMA application. So what's the value of "internal" then?

[IronFist]

Honestly, to me (and I'm no expert, but I still think I'm right) you're doing something internally whenever you are in 'the zone.' Don't ask me to define 'the zone.' (And please don't pick a bone) So...how does the 'Western' athlete train that? Or doesn't he/she?

So far I've heard 'visualization.' Anyone got anything else good?

I believe being "in the zone" results from a certain combination/proportion of neurotransmitters in the brain (not qi). The effect can be replicated with drugs (which have a quantifiable influence on brain chemistry) for a short period of time.

It's tough to train "being in the zone." It usually happens spontaneously, and if you try to make it happen, it doesn't; in fact, if you try to make it happen, you usually make your performance worse. It's like when you get all inside your head and overthink things in the moment, you actually do worse.

In fact, at least personally, I usually don't fully realize I was "in the zone" until it's over. Cuz when I'm in the zone, I'm usually too busy kicking ass and winning at whatever I'm doing to stop and think about it. It's almost like time dilation for me.

[IronFist]

If a Taiji cannot execute an "internal" hip throw or "internal" roundhouse kick, that means "internal" may not be able to apply into our daily life such as lifing a object. That also means an "internal" guy will have to train "external" as well.

I agree with all of this.

You cannot lift an object with qigong. Need to move that heavy object over there? The more muscles you can flex, the more overall tension you will generate, and the better chance you have of lifting it. This is documented in medical science.

Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something. If they wanted to lift it with internal technique, I mean. I dunno.

So what's the value of "internal"?

Proponents say you can do more damage with a strike if you use qi, or you can take harder strikes to the body if you use qi. I've only heard about qi infused palm strikes, however. I've never heard of a qi powered shin kick or backfist or anything.

I would love to see a quantifiable demonstration of a qi strike delivering more power, but so far, everything I've seen has been an application of physical conditioning, body mechanics, and leverage. It's especially silly when the guy doing the "qi break" is a large guy who jumps up in the air and uses all his body weight and momentum on the way down to perform the break. Qi power!

To do a legit qi break, I would like to see something that cannot be replicated by external conditioning, body mechanics, and physics/leverage.

Even so, some of the demos I've seen are impressive. For example, being able to break 5 bricks requires a good deal of training. It requires physical conditioning, mental confidence, and a decent amount of strength. I don't understand why people can't just be proud of their abilities, and instead have to say they are breaking with qi power, especially when they are jumping up in the air first and coming down with all their bodyweight and momentum behind it.

There are a lot of people out there who want to believe they have mystic power, or who want others to believe they have mystic power. And there are a lot of people who will believe them! Just look at all the kong jing believers. Yet James Randi still has his $1,000,000...

[bawang]

how does westerner train internal?

in the presence of fighters, deny qi and talk about how they trained knife fighting and wrestling.

when the fighter leaves the room, do forms and push hands.

[bawang]

Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something.

in traditional fantasy kung fu novels, the heroes are six foot tall and have huge muskles, for example water margin.

in modern times the heroes are skinny and look like woman from far away, some times if you bang bang bang in anoos it even feel like a woman.

i miss the old days when kung fu heroes massacred entire towns and comiited cannibalism.

[Pork Chop]

I've always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki (気).
I believe they're the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
In Japanese, 気 is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
The term/kanji/rootword 気 implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
You say 気を入れる (ki wo ireru) to mean "put some effort into it" - or "apply a little elbow grease".
やる気 (yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
It's basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
Outside of kiai masters, you don't really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.

I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
Sure, maybe I've only got 4 basic punches in my "sport", or 8 "limbs" used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.