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Thread: How Does the West Train Internal?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    I've always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki (気).
    I believe they're the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
    In Japanese, 気 is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
    The term/kanji/rootword 気 implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
    You say 気を入れる (ki wo ireru) to mean "put some effort into it" - or "apply a little elbow grease".
    やる気 (yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
    It's basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
    Outside of kiai masters, you don't really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.

    I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
    I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
    Sure, maybe I've only got 4 basic punches in my "sport", or 8 "limbs" used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.
    This is more or less my 'Chinese' understanding of 'qi.' I don't know why everyone has to make it so complicated (well, I kind of do, but I'd rather not think about it).

  2. #32
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    i hate to break it to you guys, but even external songshan shaolin kung fu use visualization of qi.

    even in beginner horse stance punching, shaolin kung fu uses visualization of qi.

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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    I've always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki (気).
    I believe they're the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
    In Japanese, 気 is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
    The term/kanji/rootword 気 implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
    You say 気を入れる (ki wo ireru) to mean "put some effort into it" - or "apply a little elbow grease".
    やる気 (yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
    It's basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
    Outside of kiai masters, you don't really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.

    I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
    I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
    Sure, maybe I've only got 4 basic punches in my "sport", or 8 "limbs" used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.
    In the Chinese approach, it's not that different. It is energy, and it is considered inseparable from pattern. Thus, there is a physical pattern to any expression of energy. It is not separate from it in such a definition. To believe that muscles play zero role is contrary to the definition of qi.

    In most of the internals, like many styles, an premium is placed on micromanagement of forces. Ability to do this, in practice, is almost always interpreted by most good internal martial artists I've met, as good chi. This is body mechanics, but also it is entrainment in response to outside body mechanics.

    Mixing responses here, but I've seen one internal set that does a round kick. The key difference between it and some round kicks I've seen is that the practitioner starts middle or back weighted, sinks and digs in(while arching slightly their lower back as they drop) and rise slightly and tuck as their torso shifts forward and they do the kick. The idea is to let gravity pull you down as you sink, and try to redirect that into the kick, while involving a spinal whip.

    The problem with defining internal as good body mechanics is that "good body mechanics" is a more meaningless term than "chi". What is deemed good body mechanics changes constantly, and is only useful in the narrowest of uses. It's as psuedoscientific a term as ergonomics, or how to make people able to do something that isn't good for them repetitively more times before they aren't happy at work.

    I'd also say there is not an internal hip throw in internal kung fu that I've seen, but I would also say there's room for one.

    There is one subset of hip motion in the better internals I've seen that I haven't seen as comprehensively applied in other styles, but perhaps I'm just not aware of it in those styles. The round kick I describe has it.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    i hate to break it to you guys, but even external songshan shaolin kung fu use visualization of qi.

    even in beginner horse stance punching, shaolin kung fu uses visualization of qi.
    External guys like to pretend otherwise, while pretending that external kung fu schools fight any more than internal ones.

  5. #35
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    even worse are the internal guys that dont believe in qi, and just do push hands all the time. what is the point?

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  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    even worse are the internal guys that dont believe in qi, and just do push hands all the time.
    The internal guys who do push hands all the time are a rarity. Most do the form all the time.

    IME, people playing push hands get about ten minutes of focused push hands for an hour of time spent repeating and talking about one move that worked once.

    Which, interestingly enough, also describes a lot of sparring training.

    Shut up and play your guitar is an important expression to know. You need to know what you're doing, but you also need to practice it. If all your training time is spent examining conceptual models and techniques, and almost none is spent in a manner where you are CONSTANTLY (read: without stopping to discuss) trying to pull it out of thin air, the knowledge is inaccessible.
    Last edited by Taixuquan99; 09-07-2011 at 02:52 PM.

  7. #37
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    why you tell me to play guitar? i dont want play guitar. you shat up.

    you have it upside down man. people who do only tai chi forms dont pretend they can fight. people who push hands all the time do. they think its sparring.

    Honorary African American
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    they think its sparring.
    lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    why you tell me to play guitar? i dont want play guitar. you shat up.
    I from Kansas, we whoop people up for telling us not to tell them to shut up.

    you have it upside down man. people who do only tai chi forms dont pretend they can fight. people who push hands all the time do. they think its sparring.
    No one does push hands all the time, which is why they don't know it's a drill. They do push hands for three minutes, followed by one of them or the teacher taalking for twenty minutes about what to do versus move x or why something was a good move, followed by three more minutes of push hands, followed by twenty more minutes of talk.

    If every round wrestlers practiced together their coach repeatedly brought the session to a halt and talked endlessly, so that there was 6 minutes of wrestling and an hour of why wrestlers are so tough, they'd suck.

    Every time a push hands person whines about "you used strength" and they got pushed nonetheless, then gives up pushing with that person even though they weren't direspectful, merely "strong", is another moment that doen't count as push hands. If my response in push hands can't convince you to be subtler because your use of strength isn't informed by technique, then I can definitely use the practice facing what you do until I myself recognize the worth of technique, and don't just act like I recognize it.

    No one doing disciplined push hands should be unaware of this. It's doing push hands amidst random lectures and "no, that's not push hands" that you're talking about. And those people mostly do the form.

    And the people who just do the form are the worst at saying they're deadly, EXCEPT the modern wushu folk, who just like being pretty witty and wise.
    Last edited by Taixuquan99; 09-07-2011 at 03:17 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
    Well in that case, everything is internal.

    Western boxers exhale when punching (coordinated movement with breath).

    Powerlifters breathe a certain way when lifting, etc.

    I never understand that to be the definition of "internal," however.

    Structure and mechanics and all that are important, but not what I consider "internal."

    However, from what I've heard, structure and mechanics are required for internal practice to be successful, which is why there's so much importance placed on proper structure and posture in things like standing qigong, tai chi, etc.

    But structure and mechanics don't make something internal.

    At least that's my understanding.

    I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
    That's cuz they know they're no match for their qi blasts.

    I never understood making fun of it for "lacking skill," either, especially when pretty much any boxer would be willing to spar.

    I really think it's a bit of an ego/brainwash thing.

    People don't want to admit that what they've studied for years and years and years may not be very good (wasted time, embarrassment, plus the popular idea of a guy who has studied a martial art for a long period of time being a super ninja master (thanks, Hollywood!)).

    Seriously.

    Can you imagine the embarrassment if a 10 year tai chi guy lost to a boxer with 6 months experience? Huge blow to his ego, especially if he was raised in a school and fed this "internal arts are superior" stuff for 10 years.

    Part 2 is that a lot of those guys actually believe it.

    I believed I was an awesome fighter, like totally unfounded confidence, purely because of how I trained. My ancient strength sets are superior to weight lifting, big muscles make you slow, blah blah, all the normal nonsense that still gets passed down today by clueless instructors. I'm awesome and elite (special training techniques, dit da jow, qigong, inner devlopment, etc.) and these other guys all fight like uncivilized savages. I got schooled by a noob grappler in like 30 seconds. I was like wtf, years of training for me, and this dude with 3 months experience just wiped the floor with me.

    When you actually start testing your skills, you figure stuff out really fast. Strength matters. Knowledge of grappling matters. Size matters. Size isn't related to speed or flexibility. Real opponents don't leave their arms extended after they punch for 10 hit combos. Trapping doesn't exist in (most) real fighting (although I believe it does have its place, but that's another topic). I dropped my limiting beliefs quickly. But that's really hard for some people, especially if they are socially tied up in it.

    "Oh, hey tai chi classmates with whom I've been training for 10 years, I decided I don't like this anymore and I'm going to go train at the MMA school down the street. Laters."

    Some people can't do that. They don't want to dishonor their master or break social ties with their friends or whatever.

    Combine that with the desire to want to believe. Dude, I practiced qigong every day because I so wanted to believe that it was giving me super fighting skills and I was an awesome, dedicated warrior. Fortunately I learned that it wasn't with some friendly people at an MMA club rather than in a real fight.

    That being said, I didn't drop everything that was TMA. I still believe TCMA has the most efficient methods of body conditioning. They seem to understand that slow and steady wins the race. Being able to throw a punch and not break your fist on impact is important, and TCMA conditioning methods will get you there more safely than any other way I've seen. It just doesn't have anything to do with moving magic energy around from your body to your fist.

    Being able to absorb a blow and continue fighting is also important, and again I believe TCMA has the best and most efficient methods to achieve this goal. And again, it doesn't have anything to do with magic energy protecting your body, at least not that I've seen.
    Last edited by IronFist; 09-07-2011 at 03:29 PM.
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  11. #41
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    So you got scammed by a charlatan, publicly humiliated and now want to project all the b.s. from that experience onto all practitioners of cma?

  12. #42
    Chi is the most efficient way to communicate the convergence of body mechanics with responsiveness/receptivity with health with right entrainment of right approaches.

    There simply isn't another efficient way to say that.

    It's not magic, nor is it any unknown energy.

    One who lifts and is able to push the envelope and knows well how far to push it to gain without being injured has it.

    One who plays an instrument, and whose hands efficiently move at speed and whose notes are tastefully delivered with impact in relation to the music they play to has it.

    Great boxers.

    There is nothing about chi theory that was ever meant to exclude it from ANY activity, it is only half educated martial artists that believe so, for their own egoistic reasons. And they disregard the story of Ding the Cook in so doing.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    So you got scammed by a charlatan, publicly humiliated and now want to project all the b.s. from that experience onto all practitioners of cma?
    Yes, I know I wasn't hanging out with friends doing bjj since about 2002. I didn't grow up with a friend who was a judoka, and whose dad was. Never even heard of a boxer. I feel so much wiser now.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    It just doesn't have anything to do with moving magic energy around from your body to your fist.
    it doesnt have to be one or the other. magic qi or real fighting. you can do both.


    i understand you are traumatized from 10 years of brain washing , cult mentality, and petty politics, but if you abandon kung fu and go totally into mma , those frauds win, because they retain control of kung fu. if you leave, they get to dictate what is kung fu.
    Last edited by bawang; 09-07-2011 at 04:03 PM.

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  15. #45
    The internal arts are not about good mechanics persay. They are about a specific TYPE of mechanics. It pretty simple really, I don't know why so many people don't get it.

    In external styles, power is generated from the legs, transmitted through the core to the arms, where it is added to the power the arms are generating.

    The internal arts add an extra dimension to this though a motion of the spine caused by an expansion, or contraction of the dantien.

    For example, with the spine compressed, as you punch you breath in and fill the dantien. As it inflates, the spine will lengthen because the dantien is driving everything up, and out in all directions. The power radiates into the legs, and arms, adding to the power they are already generating.

    Instead of just transferring power through, the core now becomes very active in generating power. Since you now have 3 centers of power generation, (Legs, core and arms) your strike has significantly more force than without it.

    Internal arts, although having the same structural requirements as external arts, also put more effort into building, and refining thier structure, so they have an advantage in that area as well. Although external players could do this also, the don't seem to.
    Last edited by RD'S Alias - 1A; 09-07-2011 at 04:09 PM.

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