How Does the West Train Internal?

[bawang]

royal dragon, you need to stop with the self mental masterbating and theorizing.

every time someone like ironfist brings up the real reason behind the internal problem, a deep, personal, psycholical problem, people get uncomfortable

the reason people are obsessed with internals is because of their personal failing and the white mans desire to fill an empty void that lies deep, deep inside. people are without identiy, without purpose, without culture. and internal frauds take advantage of that weakness.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It just doesn't have anything to do with moving magic energy around from your body to your fist..

One may not be able to overtly measure that, but those with internal sills can feel as sensation of extra weight, or power, or something when they hit. I don't know what that sensation is, but I know that it was manifested once I started to train the internal arts. It was never there when O just did external ones.

When I hit with that feeling, I hit significantly harder, than if I don't feel it.

I think the Chinese call that "Moving Qi to the fist", because like me, they don't know what else to call it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

royal dragon, you need to stop with the self mental masterbating and theorizing.

every time someone like ironfist brings up the real reason behind the internal problem, a deep, personal, psycholical problem, people get uncomfortable

the reason people are obsessed with internals is because of their personal failing and the white mans desire to fill an empty void that lies deep, deep inside.

In other words, I am right, stop letting the secrets out.

[bawang]

rib cage power, spinal compression, all the jargons, did you attend business school or something?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

rib cage power, spinal compression, all the jargons, did you attend business school or something?

No. I have real internal skills, and I can teach them.

What amazes me, is that everyone has this stuff all confused. Once you have it, and can teach it (and I do teach it), it's a no brainer. This is because it's really pretty simple.

The only ones who seem confused, are people who only do external arts, or were taught what is supposed to be a internal art, without the internals. This leads people to think there is nothing more than a labeling difference, rather than a real tangible difference in the way the art works.

[Lucas]

so when will someone show viable proof to a ufc fighter or equivelant? if its simple and easy to proove, the worlds top strikers would flock to the calling of the mighty internal fist method. so why arent they? whats missing? you cant just blame 'mma knuckleheads' if you show someone like silva or gsp ' hey you can hit harder by doing this method' i garantee you they would listen up. so whats the deal? why can no one proove this to a real actual fighter...? something smells

[bawang]

"i have the real internal power, i can feel it, if you dont know what im talking about you dont have real internals"

the fuk out of here

[SPJ]

yes, there is only one body.

so intensive training over time makes you better or more efficient both internally and externally.

internally focusing training

1. standing in posture, (in stillness/calmness both in body and mind; but max your "relaxation" and thus gain acute sense of change or movement)

2. breathing exercises

3. relaxation or stretching all tendons and joints.

no things mystical.

you still need your weight lifting (strength training ST)and aerobic regimes or cardio (external aspect)

no things mystical either.

so facebook is external with all widgets and gadgets

and tweeter is internal everything in 140 letters (short/max and efficiency) with links (shorten links, too not to exceed 140 letters space, that is)

we need both.

in the end, we strive to have direct and fast results with least effort (max efficiency)

after many and many training sessions to improve both internally and externally.

[bawang]

i really dont want to reveal the secret of internals but you guys are really lost.


lift weights, but dont do bicep curls. then you wont look big. then you will look ``ìnternal``.

[Dragonzbane76]

honetly, i could care less about either. I train, I train hard, I hit hard, I grapple hard, period.

People get to wrapped up in translations, definitions, "styles", etc. etc. etc.

If I was to give an honest answer to the external/internal debate, I would state that they are one thing, the same.

Taken from peoples answers to what internal is I would say that I've felt many of the things spoke about through grappling more than anything else. But honestly, again, I could care less, i train and i'm pretty confident in what I know.

not something that keeps me up at night for sure.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

so when will someone show viable proof to a ufc fighter or equivelant? if its simple and easy to proove, the worlds top strikers would flock to the calling of the mighty internal fist method. so why arent they? whats missing? you cant just blame 'mma knuckleheads' if you show someone like silva or gsp ' hey you can hit harder by doing this method' i garantee you they would listen up. so whats the deal? why can no one proove this to a real actual fighter...? something smells

I can. Send them my way.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

To answer the original question, the West does not train internal skills. What is regarded as internal, is a highly specific type of body mechanics. One is unique to the Northern arts, and the other to the Hakka styles. They are found in no other discipline in the world.

[IronFist]

One may not be able to overtly measure that, but those with internal sills can feel as sensation of extra weight, or power, or something when they hit. I don't know what that sensation is, but I know that it was manifested once I started to train the internal arts. It was never there when O just did external ones.

When I hit with that feeling, I hit significantly harder, than if I don't feel it.

I think the Chinese call that "Moving Qi to the fist", because like me, they don't know what else to call it.

That's why I said I don't think there could ever be a double blind study to test it, because the guy doing it would always be aware of the fact that he was doing it, or supposed to be doing it, and that may influence him. Even if there is nothing actually going on, the simple belief that there is some qi in his fist might make him hit harder. It's kind of like how the right pep talk/pump up can cause a powerlifter to add a few more pounds onto a lift and successfully complete a lift with 10 more pounds than he just failed with on the previous lift 10 minutes beforehand. Nothing measurable changed.

I don't doubt that you feel stuff. I did qigong for a long time I and I also felt stuff. The energy in the dan dien, the rushing of water over the arms feeling, etc. When I would do iron forearms training I could feel the qi (or whatever) in my forearms. The subtle tingling-yet-heaviness feeling. But I don't think that had anything to do with my ability to take a hard strike without damage. I banged my inner forearm on stuff a couple times on accident and it didn't hurt, and I didn't have my qi "charged up" or anything at those points.

All I'm saying is, I don't doubt these people can hit hard. I just want to see a qi iron palm breaking demo where it's not an (often ridiculous) use of leverage and body mechanics being blamed on qi. Or some parlor trick like lifting the edge of the brick up the moment before impact. That's not qi power, that's physics and leverage.

If someone wants to do a qigong break, he should break a bunch of bricks with no spacers flat on the ground by actually projecting his qi into it rather than using muscle or strength and tons of leverage, and he certainly shouldn't begin by jumping into the air so he can come down on it with all his body weight. Lightly tap the stack of bricks and have them shatter or something, something that obviously can't be explained by physics. That would be more believable.

Show me an iron body demo where a guy gets hit in the stomach and he isn't flexing every muscle in his torso at the moment of impact. That's not qi protection, that's physical protection; the same way anyone takes a hit.

Blindfold a guy, have him move his qi to his abdomen so he's "protected" or whatever, and let someone punch him in the gut at a random moment so he can't be all waiting with his muscles flexed. Bonus points if it's not a fat qigong master, because fat people can take punches easier anyway since they have more mass between them and their organs. On a related note, there sure are a lot of fat qigong masters. (I'm not the first to notice this: link)

Some people want to talk about throat training. The spear bending thing is a stage trick (physics). It has nothing to do with qi. They have to put it in a specific point on their throat and push a certain way, otherwise they die (not that the spear is super sharp, anyway). Physics and slight of hand and audience misdirection, not qi. Notice everyone puts it in the same place at the bottom of the throat and pushes down. Hmm, I wonder why? They're trying to tell the audience that they can withstand strikes to the throat so the audience believes they have super human power. Nonsense. They're doing the same stage trick that performers have done for years.

It's a disservice to TMA. No wonder people make fun of qiblasts.

But there are always going to be people who believe it, or who want to believe in it. Dozens of people think their master can move them with kong jing. How many hours do you think they spend on kong jing training exercises? We all know what happens when kong jing people fight real fighters (or even people outside their own school).

Again, I stress conditioning is important. You don't want to break your hand in a strike. But your hand is becoming stronger because of Wolff's Law and a slow desensitization to pain, not because magic energy is protecting it.

I would stand up and applaud if I ever saw a kung fu school or Shaolin monk demo where they said "this guy is going to break some bricks. He has been conditioning his hand for a long time and has strong bones and the mental focus to perform the break. This type of training requires months/years of practice and is highly indicative of a skilled practitioner." But they never say that. They say junk like "you can see him moving his qi into his hand. Qi protects the hand and blah blah blah superhuman powers. These special exercises blah blah blah."

Why is it so important that they mislead the audience like that? Why do so many (but not all) TCMA people need other people to believe they have supernatural powers? Ego? Fear? Legend? Or do they need to keep normal people afraid of their super powers so they never actually have to fight a resisting opponent?

[IronFist]

so when will someone show viable proof to a ufc fighter or equivelant? if its simple and easy to proove, the worlds top strikers would flock to the calling of the mighty internal fist method. so why arent they? whats missing? you cant just blame 'mma knuckleheads' if you show someone like silva or gsp ' hey you can hit harder by doing this method' i garantee you they would listen up. so whats the deal? why can no one proove this to a real actual fighter...? something smells

This.

People who make their living, who get paid and feed themselves and their family through fighting, would benefit greatly from this stuff.

"Hey dude, are you sick of going 3 rounds and having it end in decision? Do this and knock out your opponent with a single punch."

They would be all over it.

Have someone knock out their opponent from the bottom of mount or guard, striking upward without assistance from leverage, body mechanics, or body weight. That would be a good show of qi power, and I'm sure it would be useful to MMA guys, too. It would change the game.

"Boxers, sick of being dropped from liver shots? This iron vest stuff will protect you and you don't even have to flex your muscles to absorb the strike!"

Actually, maybe that's not a good idea. It would make boxing matches take even longer

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That's why I said I don't think there could ever be a double blind study to test it, because the guy doing it would always be aware of the fact that he was doing it, or supposed to be doing it, and that may influence him. Even if there is nothing actually going on, the simple belief that there is some qi in his fist might make him hit harder. It's kind of like how the right pep talk/pump up can cause a powerlifter to add a few more pounds onto a lift and successfully complete a lift with 10 more pounds than he just failed with on the previous lift 10 minutes beforehand. Nothing measurable changed.

I don't doubt that you feel stuff. I did qigong for a long time I and I also felt stuff. The energy in the dan dien, the rushing of water over the arms feeling, etc. When I would do iron forearms training I could feel the qi (or whatever) in my forearms. The subtle tingling-yet-heaviness feeling. But I don't think that had anything to do with my ability to take a hard strike without damage. I banged my inner forearm on stuff a couple times on accident and it didn't hurt, and I didn't have my qi "charged up" or anything at those points.

All I'm saying is, I don't doubt these people can hit hard. I just want to see a qi iron palm breaking demo where it's not an (often ridiculous) use of leverage and body mechanics being blamed on qi. Or some parlor trick like lifting the edge of the brick up the moment before impact. That's not qi power, that's physics and leverage.

If someone wants to do a qigong break, he should break a bunch of bricks with no spacers flat on the ground by actually projecting his qi into it rather than using muscle or strength and tons of leverage, and he certainly shouldn't begin by jumping into the air so he can come down on it with all his body weight. Lightly tap the stack of bricks and have them shatter or something, something that obviously can't be explained by physics. That would be more believable.

Show me an iron body demo where a guy gets hit in the stomach and he isn't flexing every muscle in his torso at the moment of impact. That's not qi protection, that's physical protection; the same way anyone takes a hit.

Blindfold a guy, have him move his qi to his abdomen so he's "protected" or whatever, and let someone punch him in the gut at a random moment so he can't be all waiting with his muscles flexed. Bonus points if it's not a fat qigong master, because fat people can take punches easier anyway since they have more mass between them and their organs. On a related note, there sure are a lot of fat qigong masters. (I'm not the first to notice this: link)

Some people want to talk about throat training. The spear bending thing is a stage trick (physics). It has nothing to do with qi. They have to put it in a specific point on their throat and push a certain way, otherwise they die (not that the spear is super sharp, anyway). Physics and slight of hand and audience misdirection, not qi. Notice everyone puts it in the same place at the bottom of the throat and pushes down. Hmm, I wonder why? They're trying to tell the audience that they can withstand strikes to the throat so the audience believes they have super human power. Nonsense. They're doing the same stage trick that performers have done for years.

It's a disservice to TMA. No wonder people make fun of qiblasts.

But there are always going to be people who believe it, or who want to believe in it. Dozens of people think their master can move them with kong jing. How many hours do you think they spend on kong jing training exercises? We all know what happens when kong jing people fight real fighters (or even people outside their own school).

Again, I stress conditioning is important. You don't want to break your hand in a strike. But your hand is becoming stronger because of Wolff's Law and a slow desensitization to pain, not because magic energy is protecting it.

I would stand up and applaud if I ever saw a kung fu school or Shaolin monk demo where they said "this guy is going to break some bricks. He has been conditioning his hand for a long time and has strong bones and the mental focus to perform the break. This type of training requires months/years of practice and is highly indicative of a skilled practitioner." But they never say that. They say junk like "you can see him moving his qi into his hand. Qi protects the hand and blah blah blah superhuman powers. These special exercises blah blah blah."

Why is it so important that they mislead the audience like that? Why do so many (but not all) TCMA people need other people to believe they have supernatural powers? Ego? Fear? Legend? Or do they need to keep normal people afraid of their super powers so they never actually have to fight a resisting opponent?

Qi is much more subtle than what you are looking for. Take the brick brear for instance. Sure, he has done a LOT of physical conditioning to perform this feat. He should be able to do it without the extra manipulation of his Qi. However, if he also has real internal skills, and can improve his physical ability by manifesting the "Qi" feeling in his hands, he'd be a fool to not use that advantage.


Either way, his physicality alone will allow him to break a few bricks. The added "Juice" from his ability to manifest a greater Qi flow to his hands is going to either make it easier for him to do so and not be injured, OR allow him to break an extra brick.

This subtlety can really only be measured by the individual. There is no way for an outsider to measure the difference, without the potential accusation of the test being manipulated either intentionally, or subconsciously.

The ONLY way is to actually train the scientist in the skills, and have him document his progress in the methods.