How Does the West Train Internal?

[bawang]

Why is it so important that they mislead the audience like that? Why do so many (but not all) TCMA people need other people to believe they have supernatural powers? Ego? Fear? Legend? Or do they need to keep normal people afraid of their super powers so they never actually have to fight a resisting opponent?

they want to have feeling of control over themselves and others. its all about control.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

they want to have feeling of control over themselves and others. its all about control.

I always thought it was about putting on a good show because Chinese people are very artistically theatrical?

[bawang]

its only called a show when theres an actual audience.

[IronFist]

Qi is much more subtle than what you are looking for. Take the brick brear for instance. Sure, he has done a LOT of physical conditioning to perform this feat. He should be able to do it without the extra manipulation of his Qi. However, if he also has real internal skills, and can improve his physical ability by manifesting the "Qi" feeling in his hands, he'd be a fool to not use that advantage.


Either way, his physicality alone will allow him to break a few bricks. The added "Juice" from his ability to manifest a greater Qi flow to his hands is going to either make it easier for him to do so and not be injured, OR allow him to break an extra brick.

This subtlety can really only be measured by the individual. There is no way for an outsider to measure the difference, without the potential accusation of the test being manipulated either intentionally, or subconsciously.

The ONLY way is to actually train the scientist in the skills, and have him document his progress in the methods.

I get what you're saying.

There's just no way to ever prove it, then.

And as far as all the stuff being explainable by physical conditioning, mechanics, and leverage... occam's razor.

In other words, why bother with the "internal" component if you can do the same stuff without it? Your training time would be cut in half without the internal component, too, so it would be more efficient.

Unless it's just because you can


Surely there has to be some way to demonstrate qi breaking or protection skills, that isn't a parlor trick, that the audience can quantify and say "oh, that definitely was more than just applied body weight, physics, and physical conditioning."

[bawang]

internal would be at least considered for cultural purposes it had legitimate cultural value. it doesnt. its a complete fabrication.

[taai gihk yahn]

To me, "internal" means you're doing something different from strictly external movement.
Anyone can do external. You just move and do it.
Therefore "internal" has to have another component; that which makes it internal.
Usually this is qi.
For example, a regular palm strike vs. a palm strike with qi.

ummmm....
no;
anytime u do ANYTHING that involves movement of the body, so-called "qi" is involved; that's because "qi" is a functional qualifier that is endemic to physiological function; you can't seperate it out and say "movement 'x' has qi, movement 'y' doesn't"; without "qi", there would be no movement, because there would be no physiological function present; of course the quality of how one moves, and the degree to which one ties ones movement into the autonomic nervous system (eg - doing something in relative sympathetic versus parasympathetic "mode"), will have an impact;

Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something.

a steaming heap of cow dung propogated by the internal crowd; sorry, when you move, you contract muscles; heck, when you stand still, you contract muscles; without muscle contraction, the only movement possible is you falling flat on your face;
however, what you can have is muscle function that is relatively unimpeded, that is, contracting an agonist with full relaxation of the antagonist; when u have that, u get that effortlessness feeling that seems as if u aren't contracting anything - hence the belief that u aren't using muscles to move when doing internal; also, u have a phenomenon called ideomotor activity, which is the basis for spontaneous movement in qigong;
so u may not feel the degree of muscle tension associated w "external", but u will have muscle contraction - which, BTW, does NOT block the flow of qi - muscle spasm (either acute or low grade chronic patterns) which is indicative of pathology, sure (trigger points as well); but muscle contraction is normal - how could that possibly block qi?

Well in that case, everything is internal.

in a way, yes - the whole internal / not internal is a FABRICATION designed to set apart certain arts from others and to justify a more genteel manner of training; it is an artificial distinction; there is no external / internal movement, there is only movement, albeit movement that might be qualitatively different; so when u practice "internally", u r building awareness of ur structure and function in a different way than if u r training "externally" - one is not better than the other, they r just different ways to move, with different degrees of awareness at different levels;

To answer the original question, the West does not train internal skills. What is regarded as internal, is a highly specific type of body mechanics. One is unique to the Northern arts, and the other to the Hakka styles. They are found in no other discipline in the world.

so u have studied Alexander technique, Feldenkreis, Ariga gym, Trager mentastics, contact improve work, etc? because there r many similarities to what is construed in TCMA as "internal" in all of these systems - not quite in the same format or amalgamation, an not named in the same way, but the "how" is such that they are comparable;

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I get what you're saying.

There's just no way to ever prove it, then.

And as far as all the stuff being explainable by physical conditioning, mechanics, and leverage... occam's razor.

In other words, why bother with the "internal" component if you can do the same stuff without it? Your training time would be cut in half without the internal component, too, so it would be more efficient.

Unless it's just because you can


Surely there has to be some way to demonstrate qi breaking or protection skills, that isn't a parlor trick, that the audience can quantify and say "oh, that definitely was more than just applied body weight, physics, and physical conditioning."

Well, the way I see it, internal power gives you an improved edge over your physical skills. it was always considered an advanced practice, so it's really for guys at the top trying to squeaze that little bit extra out of thier game.

In Olympic sports, for instance, that little bit more can mean the difference between a Gold medal, and 4rth place. In ancient times, that little bit extra might mean the difference between beating a skilled attacker, or dying.

On the other hand, since internal power gives you a "Nitrus" boost, you can teach it earlier in the curriculum, so a student that has not fully developed the conditioning can have a little more then they could normally demonstriaght.

I start teaching the internal skills right away(even though it was not traditionally done), because I have a simple, direct to the point way of getting students to acquire the base skills. For me, it does not take any more time to develop them, than to not. This with heavy conditioning seems to be the best route. It does add some time to the class though, like an extra hour.

Also, my student is a Crossfit athlete, so I don't have to really worry about his conditioning. I just tell him what to do, and he works it into his routine.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

in a way, yes - the whole internal / not internal is a FABRICATION designed to set apart certain arts from others and to justify a more genteel manner of training; it is an artificial distinction; there is no external / internal movement, there is only movement, albeit movement that might be qualitatively different; so when u practice "internally", u r building awareness of ur structure and function in a different way than if u r training "externally" - one is not better than the other, they r just different ways to move, with different degrees of awareness at different levels;

;

Completely wrong. Internal movement is a "Specific" type of body mechanics (2 actually, one Northern, and the other southern)


Internal movement *IS* better than external, because internal movement includes the external PLUS a specific action of the dantien expansion/contraction that adds an additional stage of power generation to the over all chain. This increases the amount of power one can generate that is beyond what external methods can do, because they are lacking the extra stage.

When you look at internal power generation, and external power generation, the first thing you need to do is remove all the over laping actions. Once those are stripped away, you are left with a comparable difference.

For example, Closing Kua, tucking the tail bone, twisting the hips, extending the arms and legs occur in both (in the good ones anyway). So you have to take them off the table.

Once you have done that you will find the entirety of external motion is now off the table. What is left is core power development created by the expansion and contraction of the dantien, and by extension, the lengthening/shortening of the spine, and the opening, and closing of the chest.

These are the essence of internal power. When you add these elements to an external motion, you get internal power.

Another way to look at it, is that external power, is a *Lacking* of key Specific body mechanical motion that is driven by the dantian. Internal is the full package.

[IronFist]

ummmm....
no;
anytime u do ANYTHING that involves movement of the body, so-called "qi" is involved; that's because "qi" is a functional qualifier that is endemic to physiological function;

Ok, well by that definition everything is internal. I'm doing internal typing on my keyboard right now. I'm about to do internal mouse clicking when I click "submit reply."

a steaming heap of cow dung propogated by the internal crowd; sorry, when you move, you contract muscles; heck, when you stand still, you contract muscles; without muscle contraction, the only movement possible is you falling flat on your face;

Most internal people don't realize that. Kudos to you.

[IronFist]

Well, the way I see it, internal power gives you an improved edge over your physical skills. it was always considered an advanced practice, so it's really for guys at the top trying to squeaze that little bit extra out of thier game.

I guess.

Seems like internal power takes a while to cultivate. Aren't there more efficient ways of training, given a finite amount of training time? In other words, is the increase in performance obtained from doing x minutes of qigong activity going to be more beneficial than spending x minutes doing something else that increases power (weights, kettlebells, etc.)?

I start teaching the internal skills right away(even though it was not traditionally done), because I have a simple, direct to the point way of getting students to acquire the base skills.

Makes sense to me.

Internal movement *IS* better than external, because internal movement includes the external PLUS a specific action of the dantien expansion/contraction that adds an additional stage of power generation to the over all chain. This increases the amount of power one can generate that is beyond what external methods can do, because they are lacking the extra stage.

So would you consider powerlifting techniques, such as valsalva maneuver + tightened abs (dan tien) to be "internal" techniques? They measurably increase a lifter's maximum power output. Seems like it fits your definition:

A regular deadlift is not as strong as:

A deadlift (same external motion) + proper breathing technique + tensing the abs.

Granted, to me, it would seem weird to deadlift without proper breathing technique, but I guess you could inhale on the way up or something if you wanted.

If that is considered internal (which it may be according to your definition), is it considered qigong? Could any qigong exercises increase one's performance in deadlift as a result?

When you look at internal power generation, and external power generation, the first thing you need to do is remove all the over laping actions. Once those are stripped away, you are left with a comparable difference.

Get out of here with your science and rational thinking

For example, Closing Kua, tucking the tail bone, twisting the hips, extending the arms and legs occur in both (in the good ones anyway). So you have to take them off the table.

Once you have done that you will find the entirety of external motion is now off the table. What is left is core power development created by the expansion and contraction of the dantien, and by extension, the lengthening/shortening of the spine, and the opening, and closing of the chest.

These are the essence of internal power. When you add these elements to an external motion, you get internal power.

Do those techniques result in increased power through "mystic energy" or just increased power through better body structure?



Just so I understand you, it seems to me that you're classifying "internal" as proper body structure + specific breathing + subtle structural movements/corrections. Is this correct?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So would you consider powerlifting techniques, such as valsalva maneuver + tightened abs (dan tien) to be "internal" techniques? They measurably increase a lifter's maximum power output. Seems like it fits your definition:

A regular deadlift is not as strong as:

A deadlift (same external motion) + proper breathing technique + tensing the abs.

Granted, to me, it would seem weird to deadlift without proper breathing technique, but I guess you could inhale on the way up or something if you wanted.

Well, no, not really. Tensing the abs, and breathing out would be backwards to internal power generation in this motion. If you tuck the tail bone, open the lower back, then relax the abs as you breath IN, allowing the inflating air bubble to both reinforce your core (in place of tensed abs), and drive the spine up, THAT would be an internal dead lift.

I actually have a whole gambit of weight training designed to increase the strength of my internal power core (Dantien). Many appear similar to regular weight lifting, but once you examine the details they are in fact very different. some are polar opposites, despite the outer motion looking very much the same.

If that is considered internal (which it may be according to your definition), is it considered qigong? Could any qigong exercises increase one's performance in deadlift as a result?

You would have to lift internally, but yes. HOWEVER, since manifesting internal power on a lift is very different than how it's normally done, you must take time to develop the muscles of your core as they will be used very differently due to actually producing power, rather than just having a stabilizing action. This is why I teach internal skills right away; to avoid the bog down time.

Do those techniques result in increased power through "mystic energy" or just increased power through better body structure?

Well, on the surface it's not much more than adding an additional layer of power generating to the already existing chain. However, as the skill develops, one does start to feel internal connections through the channels, and the cooling, ease of Qi flow as well. This is always accompanied by superior performance.

The phenomenon is most noticeable early on, because it's hit or miss. You may experience it every 20 tries, but not the rest of the reps. As tie goes on, it happens more, and more. Eventually you may feel it from the 3rd rep all the way to the 16th rep, then loose the feeling.

Oddly, trying to make this feeling happen prevents it.

Some days, you will have it in abundance, and previously difficult workouts are very easy. Then you lose the feeling and they become difficult again untill it comes back, or you learn to relax enough to allow it to manifest.

Once you have developed the Qi so it is very strong, and you feel it all the time, it's harder to tell because you lose the compare and contrast between feeling it, and not.

Just so I understand you, it seems to me that you're classifying "internal" as proper body structure + specific breathing + subtle structural movements/corrections. Is this correct?

Yes, for the most part. Specifically the relaxing of the abs, breathing in to fill the dantien so the spine can be both drive up by it, and supported by the resulting air bubble (this pressure also braces the spine like a back brace from the inside). This expansion is in all directions,and radiates into the legs as well,adding to the extension motion which governs leg produced power.

It does go deeper than that though, because the specific mechanics manifest the Qi, and strengthen it to the point where it is boosting your abilities beyond just the additional mechanics alone (that is what I feel in myself, anyway).

The Qi development is something you cannot try to acquire. You have to focus on the internal mechanics, and over a very long time they manifest and strengthen it.

It is a very deep, and personal practice, that quite frankly, cannot be measured. The outward observer can easily just claim that it is just the greater development of the additional mechanics and thier strength through progressive development that is the real cause.

I do know this though, the specific dantien expansion/contraction action is what develops it to the point that you can feel it, and obtain benefit from it. Nothing else works. This is why many martial Qi Gong are so dantien focused.

[IronFist]

Just for the noobs reading this, attempting a deadlift with the tailbone tucked is a good way to end up in the hospital.

The spine is strongest when arched (don't confuse that with rounded!) and your butt sticking out. This is how it is designed to bear loads.

I know you know this, RD, but I don't want any lurkers thinking they're going to invent some "internal deadlift" or something and end up hurting themselves.




Regarding the rest of your post, I didn't mean the deadlift breathing + ab tightening was a qigong exercise, I was just asking if it fit your criteria of an internal component, since it involved specific breathing techniques combined with specific abdominal movement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

John said it best:
How do you do an internal round kick? or an internal hip throw?

I woudl add how does one lift 300lbs internally?

We don't, no one does.
Its just a way of expressing certain things that go on IN the body when we do physcial movement.

When powerlifter is about to squat 300lbs or deadlift 300 lbs, he uses what breathing method?
As per TCMA, he uses reverse breathing which is the natural way our bodies breathes when excessive strength and force needs to be produced
As per western views, he breathes and expands his core and "holds" that breath in to support his core muscles and ribs and so forth ( not wanting to get to technical) and exerts the strength he needs and exhales when done.
Boxers do the same when striking and take a shot.
The ordinary person, when they are going to push a car that is not working or stuck, what do they do?
Get behind it, root themselves, their breathing automatically becomes "reverse breathing", the hold and they PUSH against the ground keeping thei bodies aligned, etc,etc.

All that without ONE lesson in IMA.

How does the west train the "internal"?
By training the "external" correctly, like it has ALWAYS been done, everywhere until some "desk jockey" decided that he should put a name to ONE PART of a WHOLE.

How does an IMA run the 100 meters?
If he wants to run it as fast as possible, the same way the world record holder does.

[Ray Pina]

Internal is a study of mechanical movement and structure paired with intent

Taiji, Ba Gua and Hsing-I each employ different methods of the above to achieve their goals. These styles are unique fighting methods that happen to complement each other well, sort of like wrestling, BJJ and Judo.

Internal is a study of one's ... well, it's hard to name it. Energy system?.... it's more than that. Intention/mind frame? That's there too. .... I've never learned form. But I've been shown postures and have held them for periods that were as difficult as any intense MMA training I've done..... with no results..... at first!

With time you settle into these postures and it's a mean to self check yourself. If the posture is uncomfortable there's a reason. Usually holding stress somewhere.... when you're all right, it's comfortable. You feel your channel running, like circulating pipes. Keeping them flowing clean.... I have no more proof of this than I do when I say I have a head ache. The person with it knows.

[Ray Pina]

rib cage power, spinal compression, all the jargons, did you attend business school or something?

You are right and you are wrong when you tell someone stating they know so believe them to get the hell out of here.

In this case, there is additional power to be obtained if you know how to add the rib cage with the punches forward momentum. Send the rib and the elbow together. More mass. There's lots of things like that.