How Does the West Train Internal?

[Pork Chop]

I believed I was an awesome fighter, like totally unfounded confidence, purely because of how I trained. My ancient strength sets are superior to weight lifting, big muscles make you slow, blah blah, all the normal nonsense that still gets passed down today by clueless instructors. I'm awesome and elite (special training techniques, dit da jow, qigong, inner devlopment, etc.) and these other guys all fight like uncivilized savages. I got schooled by a noob grappler in like 30 seconds. I was like wtf, years of training for me, and this dude with 3 months experience just wiped the floor with me.

I've been trying to think out a response to this for the last couple days.
For me, it was a number of different moments.

First moment was when I was still in my first school, I'd sparred one of the seniors early on and did well. Apparently that event was enough to get him to start training for real. I was learning form after form, working hard every class. Meanwhile, he was hiding out at the fitness gym, working the bag like crazy. Then, the night before I was supposed to fight a kid from school who'd tried to jump me in the parking lot, my senior put a severe beating on me. I think another senior beat me up pretty nicely as well that night. The kid from school ended up running instead of fighting 1 on 1 (3 on 1 was more his style). I was probably lucky that day, coz I think I had a broken foot and I don't think I would've been good in that fight.

Fast forward to college. Worked as a lifeguard. One of my coworkers was real obnoxious. Slept with any thing that moved. Tall lanky dude. He started slap boxing me one day out of the blue, for no reason. He'd never done a martial art in his life; but I couldn't do anything to him. Couldn't touch him. Had no idea what to do. It freaked me out.

Couple years later, started at a different kung fu school in austin. I'd been there a while when one weekend, "friendly" sparring had gone out of the ring. I'd dropped my hands and was about to turn around to reset. Guy I was sparring had come behind me, grabbed my gloves, turned, and spiked me on the floor. I was bleeding from the mouth and couldn't get up for a while, hadn't been able to do anything to break my fall. Instructor said nothing. If anything, I think he wanted the other guy to do it. Only response I got from him was "well that guy was an actual athlete". [Side note: often thought about going back to that school since I moved back to texas; maybe do some "dojo storming". Still a lot of anger there though, and I try to stay away from situations where I'll lose my control.]

Two or three years after that. Another kung fu school, this time in DC. Fighting and forms were unrelated. Fighting was watered down kickboxing to win tournament style "medium contact continuous". Was splitting my time between fighting, lion, and forms; with most of the emphasis on forms. I HATE that format of sparring - either go full or go light. My tournament showings in continuous sparring were pathetic and always frustrating.

Sanshou was much more fun. I trained sanshou at a club that was closer to my house, while still driving an hour to go to the kung fu school in DC. Until; that is, I started getting in trouble for training the sanshou stuff, which led to me quitting the kung fu school. The last time I went, they had me spar everyone in the class, outside, on the street, with shoes on. One of my sihings tore me up pretty good with sidekicks and then accused me of losing my temper when I stalked him, got on the inside and started landing hard shots to his body. One of the newer students kept bum-rushing me, almost tackle style. He made the mistake of doing it when i was mid round kick, made me lose control of the kick. Gave him a black eye and dropped him. Got yelled at pretty good that time.

Even though I got knocked out in my first sanda match; I really didn't have any confidence that was grounded in reality about my fighting skills until I started training the sport stuff full time. Had no concept of what I could do and what I couldn't do.

I do miss the forms sometimes. I miss the lion sometimes. I even miss my classmates sometimes. I may go back some day. But the biggest thing I'm thankful for is not always having that question nagging at the back of my mind about whether or not I can actually use the stuff.

Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained. One of the biggest differences was finally having a proven & tested game plan. I think that's due to a mixture of not having enough experience at any one school to really know the principles behind each style's gameplan, poor teaching style, and my own inabilities at the time. I love being able to pick apart an attack or counter and know whether or not it'll work; or at least know what I'll have to keep an eye out for.

Fighting-wise, I don't see myself making any fundamental changes to what I'm doing any time soon.

[Robinhood]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

This is pretty much what I have been saying, only without all the excessive text book lectures.

[taai gihk yahn]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

except that if you understand how the body actually works in terms of muscle physiology / kinesiology, etc., this is just a statement with no basis in reality...

I mean, what outside shell? last I checked, the entire body is interconnected; it's impossible to move from the "outside" shell - it all moves together; of course, you can have relative inhibition of core musculature due to dysfunction, but this is different - for example, gluteals can be inhibited so hamstrings take over; multifidi can be inhibited, so erector spinae and psoas take over - but this is dysfunctional, it has nothing to do with internal v external; and certainly, you can have different qualities of movement that may be different one to the other; but otherwise, please remember that a lot of this internal stuff was derived based on a limited understanding of human physiology; people who are TCMA zombies go on and on about how vastly superior the ancient Chinese knowledge of human physiology was compared to modern day, when in fact it's exactly the opposite; our knowledge base is immeasurably larger now; and yet, some people create artificial statements like the one above, basically trying to make the body's function fit the internal / external paradigm;

[Dragonzbane76]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

like chopping a car in two. what good does having one side without the other do? You can have all the "shells" in the world when comparing but in real time they are the same and cannot be seperated. they are parts of a whole. take the engine out of a car and it goes no where. put the body of the car by itself and it goes no where. one and the same this external/internal dogma gets old.

[Robinhood]

"except that if you understand how the body actually works in terms of muscle physiology / kinesiology, etc., this is just a statement with no basis in reality..."

Your understanding only covers the external shell.

Science seems to only have a small understanding of basic body mechanics, when it comes to the mind entering into the picture science has a long way to go.

Science still has not found the medium for gravity, or for the mind or for entanglement for that matter. Just because you don't understand how something works does not mean it doesn't exist.

Maybe some day science will have some answers for this stuff, plenty of room left for understanding the universe.

[IronFist]

Until; that is, I started getting in trouble for training the sanshou stuff, which led to me quitting the kung fu school.

Your teacher didn't want you training in another style? Or he was threatened by your new skills?

The last time I went, they had me spar everyone in the class, outside, on the street, with shoes on.

Why? Because they were mad at you for training sanshou?

I do miss the forms sometimes.

Yeah I know what you mean.

Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained.

Totally agreed.

[Taixuquan99]

except that if you understand how the body actually works in terms of muscle physiology / kinesiology, etc., this is just a statement with no basis in reality...

I mean, what outside shell? last I checked, the entire body is interconnected; it's impossible to move from the "outside" shell - it all moves together; of course, you can have relative inhibition of core musculature due to dysfunction, but this is different - for example, gluteals can be inhibited so hamstrings take over; multifidi can be inhibited, so erector spinae and psoas take over - but this is dysfunctional, it has nothing to do with internal v external; and certainly, you can have different qualities of movement that may be different one to the other; but otherwise, please remember that a lot of this internal stuff was derived based on a limited understanding of human physiology; people who are TCMA zombies go on and on about how vastly superior the ancient Chinese knowledge of human physiology was compared to modern day, when in fact it's exactly the opposite; our knowledge base is immeasurably larger now; and yet, some people create artificial statements like the one above, basically trying to make the body's function fit the internal / external paradigm;

I think that the difficulty is related to seeing internal as a descriptive term, which it clearly is not used as, versus merely a reference to so-called Taoist martial arts, which holds up quite well, imo.

[Taixuquan99]

I've been trying to think out a response to this for the last couple days.
For me, it was a number of different moments.

First moment was when I was still in my first school, I'd sparred one of the seniors early on and did well. Apparently that event was enough to get him to start training for real. I was learning form after form, working hard every class. Meanwhile, he was hiding out at the fitness gym, working the bag like crazy. Then, the night before I was supposed to fight a kid from school who'd tried to jump me in the parking lot, my senior put a severe beating on me. I think another senior beat me up pretty nicely as well that night. The kid from school ended up running instead of fighting 1 on 1 (3 on 1 was more his style). I was probably lucky that day, coz I think I had a broken foot and I don't think I would've been good in that fight.

Fast forward to college. Worked as a lifeguard. One of my coworkers was real obnoxious. Slept with any thing that moved. Tall lanky dude. He started slap boxing me one day out of the blue, for no reason. He'd never done a martial art in his life; but I couldn't do anything to him. Couldn't touch him. Had no idea what to do. It freaked me out.

Couple years later, started at a different kung fu school in austin. I'd been there a while when one weekend, "friendly" sparring had gone out of the ring. I'd dropped my hands and was about to turn around to reset. Guy I was sparring had come behind me, grabbed my gloves, turned, and spiked me on the floor. I was bleeding from the mouth and couldn't get up for a while, hadn't been able to do anything to break my fall. Instructor said nothing. If anything, I think he wanted the other guy to do it. Only response I got from him was "well that guy was an actual athlete". [Side note: often thought about going back to that school since I moved back to texas; maybe do some "dojo storming". Still a lot of anger there though, and I try to stay away from situations where I'll lose my control.]

Two or three years after that. Another kung fu school, this time in DC. Fighting and forms were unrelated. Fighting was watered down kickboxing to win tournament style "medium contact continuous". Was splitting my time between fighting, lion, and forms; with most of the emphasis on forms. I HATE that format of sparring - either go full or go light. My tournament showings in continuous sparring were pathetic and always frustrating.

Sanshou was much more fun. I trained sanshou at a club that was closer to my house, while still driving an hour to go to the kung fu school in DC. Until; that is, I started getting in trouble for training the sanshou stuff, which led to me quitting the kung fu school. The last time I went, they had me spar everyone in the class, outside, on the street, with shoes on. One of my sihings tore me up pretty good with sidekicks and then accused me of losing my temper when I stalked him, got on the inside and started landing hard shots to his body. One of the newer students kept bum-rushing me, almost tackle style. He made the mistake of doing it when i was mid round kick, made me lose control of the kick. Gave him a black eye and dropped him. Got yelled at pretty good that time.

Even though I got knocked out in my first sanda match; I really didn't have any confidence that was grounded in reality about my fighting skills until I started training the sport stuff full time. Had no concept of what I could do and what I couldn't do.

I do miss the forms sometimes. I miss the lion sometimes. I even miss my classmates sometimes. I may go back some day. But the biggest thing I'm thankful for is not always having that question nagging at the back of my mind about whether or not I can actually use the stuff.

Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained. One of the biggest differences was finally having a proven & tested game plan. I think that's due to a mixture of not having enough experience at any one school to really know the principles behind each style's gameplan, poor teaching style, and my own inabilities at the time. I love being able to pick apart an attack or counter and know whether or not it'll work; or at least know what I'll have to keep an eye out for.

Fighting-wise, I don't see myself making any fundamental changes to what I'm doing any time soon.

You have an effed up training history.

[Taixuquan99]

Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained. One of the biggest differences was finally having a proven & tested game plan. I think that's due to a mixture of not having enough experience at any one school to really know the principles behind each style's gameplan, poor teaching style, and my own inabilities at the time. I love being able to pick apart an attack or counter and know whether or not it'll work; or at least know what I'll have to keep an eye out for.

This is something I agree with. In boxing, the counters to moves are well defined. In much of kung fu, teachers aren't even accepting of the fact that their styles are specific techniques as well as specific principles, so it's all disorganized. I disagree that the answer is railing against kung fu(not saying you think this), I want to see as many styles make it into the modern paradigm as possible, so destroying their reps does not lead to this end, it leads to the loss of possible info. I think enough people on here alone have shown that it is possible to organize that knowledge, so I suspect that the future of instructors is less authors of books on forms without any appreciable display of technical knowledge, and more technical manuals on how to use their styles.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Your understanding only covers the external shell.

Science seems to only have a small understanding of basic body mechanics, when it comes to the mind entering into the picture science has a long way to go.

Science still has not found the medium for gravity, or for the mind or for entanglement for that matter. Just because you don't understand how something works does not mean it doesn't exist.

Maybe some day science will have some answers for this stuff, plenty of room left for understanding the universe.

I just spent the better part of this thread explaining how it works, in detail.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is something I agree with. In boxing, the counters to moves are well defined. In much of kung fu, teachers aren't even accepting of the fact that their styles are specific techniques as well as specific principles, so it's all disorganized. I disagree that the answer is railing against kung fu(not saying you think this), I want to see as many styles make it into the modern paradigm as possible, so destroying their reps does not lead to this end, it leads to the loss of possible info. I think enough people on here alone have shown that it is possible to organize that knowledge, so I suspect that the future of instructors is less authors of books on forms without any appreciable display of technical knowledge, and more technical manuals on how to use their styles.

I think Kung Fu suffers from poor teaching methodology, more then poor systems.

On the other hand, if you look at the individual schools, there are some great masters who understand how to engage, the lines of entry and application of technique as it applies to thier styles.

There are some over all styles well renowned for making fighters, like South mantis, and Shuai Jiao. This has to do with the over all system of teaching they employ, as well as the art itself.

The styles who tend to have limited fighters are suffering from a culture of poor teaching habits. Someone with a competitive full contact coaching background can take those styles, and make them profound fighting system with no additions to the style itself.

[Pork Chop]

Your teacher didn't want you training in another style? Or he was threatened by your new skills?

I think he thought it was a distraction.
The breaking point came when I left a round timer with one of my seniors.
Another senior ran and told sifu, who threw it out the front door.
The next time I came into class, he blew up at me.

Why? Because they were mad at you for training sanshou?

Well, I'm not sure why.
At the time, it didn't feel like special treatment because I was there, but we'd never sparred outside like that before. So the thought's lingered in the back of my head that there was maybe a reason for it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think he thought it was a distraction.
The breaking point came when I left a round timer with one of my seniors.
Another senior ran and told sifu, who threw it out the front door.
The next time I came into class, he blew up at me.



Well, I'm not sure why.
At the time, it didn't feel like special treatment because I was there, but we'd never sparred outside like that before. So the thought's lingered in the back of my head that there was maybe a reason for it.

Sounds like he was a nut ball.

[bawang]

I miss the lion sometimes.

that explains your problem. i avoid anything with lion dance like std.

Sounds like he was a nut ball.

no, sounds like he was a kung fu instructor.