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Thread: Bawang Quan in Cailifo/Choy Lee Fut?

  1. #46
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    Hi sunwukon,

    In that case, Yim You-Chin would be the same as Zhen Yao-Chao 甄耀超 mentioned by Marcelo in post #8

    From the same thread, it would seem to give an impression that Sifu CKW's lineage came down through Yan Yao-Ting 顏耀庭.

    Yan Yao-Ting 顏耀庭 > Zhen Yan-Chu 甄炎初 > Zhen Yao-Chao 甄耀超 > CKW, that would mean it leads to Chan Koon-Pak, because Yan Yao-Ting was one of his students.

    As far as I know, Chan Koon-Pak and Yan Yao-Ting's line don't have this Ba-Wong-Kuen form and if Sifu CKW didn't make it up, then it would be by one of the two Zhen Sifu mentioned.

    XJ

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kai men View Post
    Hi everybody! I see you ve been very busy discussing this subject!
    GM Chan Kowk Wai hasn't invented anything. He has been taught this version of FUTSAN HUNG SING CHOY LI FAT, by his teacher. His teacher didn't have any other student continuing the way so we are nowadays the only ones who train these TEN forms of Choy Li Fat PLUS ONE FORM FROM BAK SING: SAP SHI KAU TA KUIN.

    The first form si calles Ba Won Kuin meaning something like "TOUGH PERSON" (in brazil you would say "Malandro" ;-)
    although the secuenses are different, the style is pretty similar to the present day Fatsan CLF.
    About inventing forms, nothing wrong with this. King Muy Hung Sing CLF had originally THREE forms. 160 years later it has 100.

    All CLF schools are the same family! the core movements are the same, kua choy, sou choy, chap shoy, etc.

    The CLF taught by Chan Kowk Wai IS NOT BAK SING! Bak Sing comes from our style.
    Regards!
    horacio
    Really? Because the form in the video clip looked like straight up Chan Koon Pak line King Mui (except for the double poon kius), and that forms list contains several forms which are not normally associated with the Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon, but are with Chan Koon Pak and Chan On Pak's descendents.
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
    www.swindonkungfu.co.uk

  3. #48
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    Out of 11 forms in that list Fut San shares only Four sets of the same name. (Ping Kuen,Sup Ji, Sup Ji Kau Da, and Fut Jeung). However, the name is the only thing shared as chan fam version is not the same as the Fut San version.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  4. #49
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    That and sup gee kow dah kuen is not from buk sing.

  5. #50
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    That and sup gee kow dah kuen is not from buk sing.
    Unless they developed their own version of it of course.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  6. #51
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    That is possible but generally they all speak of ping kuen, sup gee kuen and kow dah kuen as their hand sets as we both know.

  7. #52
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    That is possible but generally they all speak of ping kuen, sup gee kuen and kow dah kuen as their hand sets as we both know.
    Well according to our branch the three you mentioned was derived from one large form. but i will admit this, all three....sup ji,kau da, and Ping Kuen all possess the same exact sections. perhaps this was why fut san created a sup ji kau da kuen.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  8. #53
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    The Bak Sing I learned had the forms Yat Moon Kuen, Gay Boon Kuen, Sup Ji kuen, Lien Wan Kuen, Sup Ji Jin Kuen and Lien Wan Jin Kuen.
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
    www.swindonkungfu.co.uk

  9. #54
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    Not saying buk sing doesn't have more forms now and who knows names might change or forms could have different names. I have heard lien wan mentioned a bit in buk sing as they are well-known for their lien wan chop choy.

    Gay Boon Kuen - Fundamental Fist (likely created by the sifu as a beginner/introductory form)

    Yat Moon Kuen - translates to 1st form or basic form and is also a likely creation for ones school for beginning students

  10. #55
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    I asked my CLF sifu about the bawang/bo wong form as he has connection’s with other CLF sifu’s from the other CLF branches in Hong Kong & China. He said he has never heard of a CLF form with that name.

  11. #56
    Seems there's something out of place in CKW's Hung Sing lineage chart.
    This is how the Hung Sing line is recorded in his official website ( http://www.sinobrasileira.org/index....subid=11&ln=pt ):

    Chan Heung
    |
    Chang Hung Sing (Jeung Yim)
    |
    Chan Kwan Pak
    |
    Chan On Pak
    |
    HUNG SING BRANCH
    |
    Gan Yu Ten
    |
    Yan Yin HU
    |
    Yan You Chin
    |
    Chan Kwok Wai



    Although Sifu Di Renzo states CKW's is Futsan Hung Sing CLF, and although CKW hilself says he started learning in Futsan, the lineage chart above points to Chan On Pak as being the teacher of Gan Yu Ten, and that's the point where his "Hung Sing" branch starts.



    Besides, it reads in http://www.sinobrasileira.org/index....subid=10&ln=en that his CLF teacher was Chan Cheok Sing, not Yan You Chin.



    At this point, I'm inclined to believe that CKW holds a hybrid lineage (see that Jeoung Yim comes before Chan Heung's sons in his lineage chart). That's why the form we're researching about is not found in Chan Fam nor in Hung Sing mainstreams.


  12. #57
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    shouldn't On Pak be before Koon Pak? just askin'
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  13. #58
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    They really should be the same generation. But On Bak would be Koon Bak's sihing.

  14. #59
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    fist...Chan Cheok Sing is NOT who taught Chan Kowk Wai this branch of CLF. He was his first teacher, in china, and he learnt CLF with him being a little child. Next, in HONG KONG he learnt with Yan Su Chin, his Futsan Hung Sing CLF teacher. Yan wasnt a proffesional teacher he taught only four students, the only one who decided to teach was Chan Kowk Wai. So...any change, of any kind, should be credited to Chan Kowk Wai's teacher or maybe they were a family branch...anyhow, that I dont know...sorry.
    The only Bak Sing form we teach is Sap Chi Kau Ta...that was learnt by Yim Sheung Mo training with Tam Sam in Guangzhow.
    All the other forms are taught exactly according to the way my sifu learnt them. That is all I can say.
    Regards!!!
    horacio
    Horacio Di Renzo
    Asociacion Kai Men Kung Fu -Buenos Aires - Argentina
    Formal Student of GM Chan Kowk Wai
    http://www.kaimen.com.ar

  15. #60
    Gracias, Horacio, por tu ayuda!

    The problem here is that Sifu CKW's lineage chart links his CLF to the Chan brothers (through the Yan family and Gan Yu Ten), not to Jeung Yim - thus to King Mui's, not to Futsan's Hung Sing (different characters, different meanings, different flavours).

    I tend to believe that the Yan family should have a peculiar style, for you mention the Futsan line and the chart report to King Mui's.

    Plus, the Ba Wong Quan form (btw, is that the name of the form that girl is performing, which happens to be the same one that I have learned?), which does not belong to Chan Fam nor to Hung Sing, indicates that we're speaking of something different and almost hidden, which survives thanks to the efforts of people like Sifu CKW and yourself.

    Un abrazo!

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