Of Crabs and Men

[Mike Patterson]

When I first knew my teacher, he used to talk about what he called "the crab mentality". When I asked him what that was, he said; "Ever see bucket of crab in night market?" I said I had. He said; "Next time you watch awhile. You will see when one tries to get to the top and get out of the bucket, the others will grab him with their claws and pull him back down."

In my day, in the kuoshu tournaments, we fought and we fought hard IN THE RING. But outside, all promoted a spirit of friendship in the arts, through fighting and training. Two of my most treasured posessions still remain as a banner that was given to me by the Taiwanese team that reads "Friendship through martial arts." and a plaque, given to me by the Japanese team that says "In the spirit of brotherhood, we compete."

WHAT has happened to martial virtue in this country? Why all the bickering over useless things? A civilized comparison is the only thing worthwhile in a discussion forum. Since many things "must be shown to be understood" what is the purpose of denigrating other methods or practices through words alone?

I have, three times, tried to participate in such forums and or discussion lists. The first, a xingyi list started by Forest Chang back in the 90's. The second, the early empty flower discussion board (same time I had one on my own site also). The third, THIS forum.

Always the same thing as I first stated when I got involved a few weeks back. Not much reason to post. The threads always derail and devolve into something that is either irrational chest thumping, a "look down my nose at what you do because you don't think like me" mentality, a clown trying to be cute, or two clowns airing past grievances. What a waste of time in most cases. Where it COULD be SO much better if people would just extend a little, and I don't ask for much, but a LITTLE martial spirit.

Too bad. Many could learn alot if properly handled I think. But I do understand the difficulty of where to draw the line between "free speech" and "abusive behaviour" in terms of moderation. It's a very tough call sometimes and I ceased wanting to to that which is why I abandoned my own discussoin forum about a year after it came into being. Too much B.S. and not enough productive discussion.

If discussion were discussion.. put up a clip and then talk about what you see and think. Then let others do the same. All sides may learn from that. But put up a clip and say "give me a break" or some other similar comment having no merit for discussion and what's the value?

Hat's off to the mods for doing what they do as it's not easy. But is surely would be nice if everyone could just extend that little bit of martial spirit.

[Minghequan]

Well said!

[lkfmdc]

That was an excellent post

I think that one issue is that today, we are challenging old ways of thinking. And for many, martial arts is like religion

Some people can discuss it like adults, others think to even discuss it is "sacriligious"

My personal take, those that really know have always been more open to discussions. Those with a limited exposure have a similarly limited view

Be well all

[wenshu]

How is superciliously pontificating about what is and isn't civilized and productive any different? You're banging on your chest just as hard as everyone else. Apparently you are just a little less self aware while you do it.

So any opinion that is divergent from yours or that is expressed in a manner that offends your arbitrary, apparently delicate sense of martial spirit = uncivilized and unproductive.

It's the internet, people like to talk shit and joke around. So what? Instead of stroking your own ego (don't you get enough of that around here already?) by being dismissive and passive aggressively calling people clowns maybe drop the self seriousness and look for the small pockets of informative, erudite and interesting discussion?

Perhaps we can start here; with the discussion about how modern interpretations of wu de are actually just a bastardized form of Neo-Confucianism and original recipe wu de is about eating the still beating heart of your opponent on the battlefield while his wife and kids watch.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think that a big part of it has to do with the fact that this is a forum of the written word, that is trying to discuss things that must be seen, and felt.

On the internal external topic for instance, I have tried dozens of times over the years to provide a simple, clear, and easy distinction between internal, and external martial arts.

Ultimately, I think the medium of exchange is what is preventing people from getting what I am talking about. When ever I explain this live and in person to people, they get what I am saying right away, because they can put thier hands on my stomach and back and feel what is going on.

You just can't do that here.

[lkfmdc]

I think he was talking about Ray saying "I know you never really fought and if you did it was just push hands" BS....

How is superciliously pontificating about what is and isn't civilized and productive any different? You're banging on your chest just as hard as everyone else. Apparently you are just a little less self aware while you do it.

So any opinion that is divergent from yours or that is expressed in a manner that offends your arbitrary, apparently delicate sense of martial spirit = uncivilized and unproductive.

It's the internet, people like to talk shit and joke around. So what? Instead of stroking your own ego (don't you get enough of that around here already?) by being dismissive and passive aggressively calling people clowns maybe drop the self seriousness and look for the small pockets of informative, erudite and interesting discussion?

Perhaps we can start here; with the discussion about how modern interpretations of wu de are actually just a bastardized form of Neo-Confucianism and original recipe wu de is about eating the still beating heart of your opponent on the battlefield while his wife and kids watch.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think he was talking about Ray saying "I know you never really fought and if you did it was just push hands" BS....

Yeah, that was crossing the line quite a bit. Doing that to me is one thing, but Mike Patterson has been there, done that, walked the path AND wrote the book.

When Ray can take sledge hammers to the chest, he might have a bit of talking room.

When Mike Patterson enters the room, it really IS the time to shut up and listen.

[Lucas]

My personal experience here, for what its worth, is that you often have to apply the old lotus in the muck analogy. I do my fair share of joking and acting silly, but I refrain from outright bickering, as I dont see any value in it.

My teacher put it well the other day, he said 'its all a matter of perception' using a rollercoaster as an analogy; on the ride one person may say how much they dislike the coaster and they want it to stop, while right behind them someone is having the best time ever. But it is the same ride.

On this ride, I try to glean what I can, laugh when its funny, shut up and admit when I've erred, and ignore what i find unproductive or not funny

[wenshu]

On this ride, I try to glean what I can, laugh when its funny, shut up and admit when I've erred, and ignore what i find unproductive or not funny

This Be Wisdom.

[bawang]

when i try to talk about serious kung fu people find it boring and no one answer. so i talk about penuses.


like that thread about traditional nine levels of ranking, where you could not only be promoted but also DEmoted, had 1 reply. that is some really important sh1t, you can easily apply this in a modern context. but no. people want to promote their dvds or talk about compressing the spine.

[Dragonzbane76]

internet=lack of emotional perception. (tone)

Body language makes up most communication. And we are talking about a subject that cannot be expressed unless felt or seen. Yes you can pick up some books and read about it or have someone describe something you can relate to but most times it gets lost in translation. I enjoy comparing things but I don't get hung up on the finer points, most times it's something I have experienced but have differing terminology for.

Thing is all these discussions should be taken with a grain of salt. It's words and words are wind. I've had my share of arguing but most of the arguments I ended up in were with people that had no communication skills what so ever and tried to pound judgements out. I finally decided it really doesn't matter.

I think you are right Mr. patterson. extending an open hand works better than a slap in the face.

[YouKnowWho]

WHAT has happened to martial virtue in this country?

My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin had asked me, "Why do you get involved with internet discussion? What can you do if people said something bad about you?" He was right. There is nothing that I can do if I don't know who that person is and where that person lives.

The problem is on most internet discussion forum, if you try to share your personal experience, people will say that you are bragging about yourself. If you don't, people will look down on you, treat you as a beginner, and ignore your posts. It's a lose-lose situation.

My teacher had involved with Shanghai newspaper debating before. People criticized him to compete in tournaments in his 40th and not giving the new generation any chance. If my teacher didn't compete in his 40th, the newspaper could still say that he was afraid of losing and that was why he didn't compete. Again, it's a lose-lose situation.

Many times I had finished my post and then deleted it right way.

- Am I bragging about myself?
- Do I try to shove my opinion into someone's throat?
- Will my post upset someone?
- Do I give people a chance to attack me?
- Do I try to share information to those who won't appreciate it in the 1st place?
- Am I too generalized in my statement?

It's very difficult to have any post that doesn't have any issue as described above.

[Minghequan]

like that thread about traditional nine levels of ranking, where you could not only be promoted but also DEmoted, had 1 reply. that is some really important sh1t, you can easily apply this in a modern context. but no. people want to promote their dvds or talk about compressing the spine.

Hey Bawang,

Can you post a link to that discussion regarding the nine levels? I'm interested!

[MightyB]

I hope you don't take too many of the posts on the forum too seriously. Yes there can be a lot of chest thumping, but there are also a lot of good debates and interesting points of view that are brought to light through some of the more "spirited" threads. I know that you've brought a lot of good insight to this forum from your experience and I'd hate to see you stop posting.

----

To Master Wang-

I think everyone that's a regular poster knows and respects you and NOBODY on here questions your experience or knowledge. And if they do, just show them that vid where you're using your leg to suspend yourself on that pole and challenge them to try.

[Jimbo]

When I post, I try to write as I would generally speak to someone in person. Meaning I do my best to be polite. If anything, when I post, I'm more polite and formal than in person. That may not be as interesting or funny, but that's okay. I learned some time ago that my sense of humor does not translate well into the written word, anyway. That does not mean that humor has no place here, though, and some people's posts have made me lol and put me in a better mood.

It's very important for me to be consistent with who I really am when I post online. That means no juvenile sniping at other people. How many people who snipe online would actually do that to the person if brought face-to-face? Probably very few. I have not invested the blood, sweat, years of my life and, yes, $$ to do what I love, in order to be drawn into protracted arguments with other people. Many MAists love to put down other MAists; it's almost a knee-jerk reaction for some. I engaged in some of that when I was younger, but have grown since then. If you're around long enough, time and life itself can and will humble you. A MAist should mature not only in skill, technique, insight/experience, etc., but also in how they treat others.

Having said that, there are plenty of real nuggets to be found in the mud.