Forms in Historical Perspective

[MightyB]

This idea was sparked by Gino Sifu's thread and I was wondering if there is a way to do this... I think it would be interesting to track down the different eras when specific forms were added to the Praying Mantis system. It'd be even cooler to track them to the individuals who either created them or imported them. I think that knowledge would give us great insight into what was going on historically in the TCMA world. I mean think about it - a master introduced a form for a reason... most likely it was an answer for a specific problem that was happening at that time and he wanted a way to transmit that knowledge to future students.

I can't do this because I can't read Chinese and I don't have access to the historical manuscripts- But I know some of you do. Maybe this research has already been done... anyway - you guys think it's a good idea?

[Tainan Mantis]

I agree, it would be interesting to know what form came from what era. Something that has been passed down for hundreds of years must have been worth saving.

Looking at books or manuals published 100 years ago we find forms that no longer exist today. Most forms that do exist today are not written of 100 years ago. What conclusion would you draw from that? Besides the fact that many forms we have today are likely modern, we can also see that creating some new forms to teach is common.

Several forms that were written about in the past, but seem to be rare or nonexistant now always spark my curiosity. For example:

The story goes that Jiang Hualong (1855-1924) befriended Li Danbai (uncle to Li Kunshan) and learned the fanche moves from him. What form Jiang Hualong learned we can not say, but Jiang Hualong did pass down a form called Zhong Lu Fanche, a form of over fifty falling fanche chops! You can say that this form combines fanche techniques with fanche techniques. Fanche of the Middle Road

This doesn't qualify as extremely old, yet now, it is very rare.

[mooyingmantis]

MightyB,

Yes, good subject for discussion!

I will take a stab at this.

Liang Xuexiang (circa 1810 - 1890 C.E.) of the Greater Meihua lineage mentions the forms Beng Bu(Yantai version), Luanjie and Shen Fen Ba Zhou in his book Boxing, Staff and Spear Fencing Manual (Quan Gun Qiang Pu) which is believed to have been written in 1842 C.E.. These are the oldest tanglangquan forms that still exist in many of the Mantis families.

Liang Xuexiang is also credited with having created the seven Zhai Yao (Essentials) forms. Though some lineages only have six Zhao Yao forms in their curriculum.

Wang Rongshen (1854 - 1926 C.E.) of the Qixing lineage is credited with having created the core forms of Seven Star Praying Mantis by 1890 C.E.. Wang was a friend of Hao Liang Ru, a master of the Mei Hua Tang Lang system. It is believed the two many have exchanged information. Thus, cross pollinating both systems with the forms/strategies of the other.

Luo Guangyu (1888 - 1944 C.E.) created the 14 Roads during his time with the Jing Wu. It is said that he encouraged students to create new forms during this period.

The Mantis Cave offers this information:

If we compare the PRC forms against shifu Luo Guang Yu ones, part of the reasoning why shifu Luo changed the Mantis he was taught, may have been to make it more functional, more adaptable to actual combat and to combat against more current fighting systems that existed at that point in time. Shifu Fan Xu Dong was a big guy and did not depend upon lightening quick movements but rather upon the overwhelming strength he had in comparison to many of his opponents. Shifu Luo shortened the movements, raised the stances and made the forms match more of his personal fighting style.
Other opinions say that shifu Luo Guang Yu changed his Northern Praying Mantis because he was influenced by the other teachers at the Jing Wu Association. In fact, even today the Jing Wu form Gong Li Quan is taught as a basic mantis set in many schools and in some of the fist forms you will find some eagle claw techniques what would prove there was some cross training done while shifu Luo Guang Yu was at Jing Wu. Additionally, other Jing Wu forms were adopted and added a mantis flavor, but the exact number of additions remain in debate.

[mantid1]

Kevin mentioned the old forms mentioned no longer exist and the ones we are doing know were not mentioned.

Going by that I would have to say that the instructors developed forms they understood that included what they wanted to pass down. It is a Martial "Art" so I can see them wanting to develop their own thing. That beind said I think it would be hard to track it down. I love the history part of it and is a big reason I was drawn to the CMA.

I am sure that Kevin has enough knowledge about Mantis that he could create a form from all the information he has. It would include only the things he thought were important in this form....and maybe call it "Tall Praying Mantis Exits the Cave". Now, imagine we have no internet, cell phones, airplanes to be able to exchange information. He passes on his knowledge and eventually one of his great, great, grandstudents decides to develop a style called the "Tall mantis style". The original form had been lost for over twenty years because that paticular instructor hated forms.......but he taught the fighting techniques out of it....the new grandstudent has to create a form using these "old" techniques to represent the style....

and the story continues.

[Tainan Mantis]

Going by that I would have to say that the instructors developed forms they understood that included what they wanted to pass down.

That is one way of looking at it.
Another way to see it is that the instructor did't want to pass down some forms from his master to but a few seect students, such as relatives, or the rich kids.
So, he made up some other forms for the other students.

Also, there is the matter of "graduation" in some schools, which would be represented with some certain forms.

BTW, as a experiment, when I taught in Taiwan, I did make up a form of my favorite techniques and taught it to students.
But, after a while performing that form didnt "feel" the same. So I stopped practicing it. If those students that had learned that form were stil training now, they just might consider the form to be some precious material to preserve.

[mooyingmantis]

That is one way of looking at it.
Another way to see it is that the instructor didn't want to pass down some forms from his master to but a few select students, such as relatives, or the rich kids.
So, he made up some other forms for the other students.

Or the master realized that the more forms he had, the longer he could milk the tit of his students for money and holding back "teh secret" meant retirement money in his old age. Never forget that human greed knows no bounds.

[bawang]

traditionally chinese kung fu taught individual postures in no particular order

[B.Tunks]

traditionally chinese kung fu taught individual postures in no particular order

Tanglang was like this too.

[EarthDragon]

Tainan, thanks for the info about Zhong Lu Fanche, I kinda heard this along the years but not with any detail and it was quite interesting, its amazing the depth of knowledge you have about mantis. so much that you know more about the system I teach then myself at times and Ive been at it a while, thank you thank you thank you. Your an asset to this board.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This thread makes me wonder whether any of the Qing Dynasty MAs had techniques which took advantage of an opponent's hair braid/topknot.

[bawang]

it was considered dirty or girly.

[iunojupiter]

This thread makes me wonder whether any of the Qing Dynasty MAs had techniques which took advantage of an opponent's hair braid/topknot.

I know that there are two separate occasions in yi lu zhai yao that utilize grabbing the top knot for head control, but those forms are relatively new.

Cheers,
Josh

[Tainan Mantis]

Glad you like it ED.

This thread makes me wonder whether any of the Qing Dynasty MAs had techniques which took advantage of an opponent's hair braid/topknot.

Yes, Mantis Recorded a large collection of hair grabs.

During the Qing dynasty (1644-1911) all males were required by law to grow their hair long and tie it in a braid known as the queue. The penalty for cutting your queue was death. This hair fashion was a sign of subjugation of the Chinese under their Manchu rulers. The only ones exempt from this law were ordained Buddhist monks.

We find many types of hair grabbing coming from that era, with the best known example being white ape steals the peach.
White Ape Steals the Peach

Maybe Brendan can make some corrections on my recording of the White Ape in this article.

[mantis108]

Well, technically you can make a form with 6 to 8 roads from all the variations of "Yi Bu San Chui" (one step three punches) only. So...

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Glad you like it ED.



Yes, Mantis Recorded a large collection of hair grabs.

During the Qing dynasty (1644-1911) all males were required by law to grow their hair long and tie it in a braid known as the queue. The penalty for cutting your queue was death. This hair fashion was a sign of subjugation of the Chinese under their Manchu rulers. The only ones exempt from this law were ordained Buddhist monks.

We find many types of hair grabbing coming from that era, with the best known example being white ape steals the peach.
White Ape Steals the Peach

Maybe Brendan can make some corrections on my recording of the White Ape in this article.

Agreed.

BTW, Nice apps of the WASP.

Warmest regards

Robert