Mook Yan Jong - is it useless?

[Yoshiyahu]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Does it actual serve a purpose?

Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?


Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

[Paul T England]

try not using one for a few years and then go back to it...

it tightens up the moves/angles, gives you something to use a bit energy on that will not complain and also makes you think about application and theory.

Its also great from hanging coats from

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[TenTigers]

Its also great from hanging coats from

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Dude, that's what treadmills and versa climbers are for.

Mook yan jongs are to lean against when teaching class, and lecturing to students.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The jong is a simple training tool, doesn't actually teach you anything really. It just allows you to exercise what you have been trying to learn. Nothing mysterious about it, nothing specific and pointed about it. Everyone wants to put the cart before the horse.
The jong is built to represent a person. It as the 2 arms to represent a 2 hand stance position, the middle arm represents an uppercut position or low punch, and the leg of course is the one foot forward stance. I find that most white men stand several inches taller than I, and the jong seems to be a man shorter than myself. I suspend my jong to represent a 6 foot man.
When we see WC represented in a movie or something, we see them punching chests and midsections, and this short jong and training the other forms at an unrealistic level is the reason.

[Graham H]

The jong is a simple training tool, doesn't actually teach you anything really.

Which means you obviously don't understand it.

The jong is built to represent a person.

No it's not......sorry I should say it doesn't in my lineage. If you want to work out on a stubby limbed man with one arm sticking out his belly and one leg who can't move then who am I to argue?

It as the 2 arms to represent a 2 hand stance position, the middle arm represents an uppercut position or low punch, and the leg of course is the one foot forward stance.

It does not! That is the general opinion in WC but we all know by now the reasons for that.

I find that most white men stand several inches taller than I, and the jong seems to be a man shorter than myself. I suspend my jong to represent a 6 foot man.

That is just completely wrong.............................IMO

When we see WC represented in a movie or something, we see them punching chests and midsections, and this short jong and training the other forms at an unrealistic level is the reason.

Before we get embroiled in another flame war lets just say that we have two completely different ideas on Ving Tsun. The only problem is that I "used" to have the same ideas as you until I found a better path.
GH

[bennyvt]

Well I'm a white man and I'm 165cm so that's got to be the dumbest racist statement ever. So what do you do against a black hit as they are all bigger and quicker.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Which means you obviously don't understand it.



No it's not......sorry I should say it doesn't in my lineage. If you want to work out on a stubby limbed man with one arm sticking out his belly and one leg who can't move then who am I to argue?


It does not! That is the general opinion in WC but we all know by now the reasons for that.



That is just completely wrong.............................IMO






Before we get embroiled in another flame war lets just say that we have two completely different ideas on Ving Tsun. The only problem is that I "used" to have the same ideas as you until I found a better path.
GH

Thats fine. We all have our own opinions. I don't think that I have any illusions about the jong or it's use, have used one for a very long time. It is a very important piece of equipment I think.
Rather than tell me that I am wrong, why not tell me what you think is right. Explain the specific purpose you spoke of. I only know about my own Wing Chun, and have never heard of all these other lineages spoken of. I would enjoy reading what you feel is the real purpose of the jong. I am not into all the philosophical stuff that is often tossed around. I am a practical man.

[LoneTiger108]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Only if it's used as a coat hanger!

Does it actual serve a purpose?

Yes.

Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?

Yes to all of that, and more imho.

Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

I was always taught that the Wooden Man represents your Sifu, so yes it's for solo practise but must be appoached with respect.

Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

Of course. Because without it where would we be?

[Sihing73]

Now I am scared too................I also agree with Graham.......what is next different WC lineages sitting in a circle around a fire making smores (which I do not like) and singing........perhaps there is indeed "Hope for the Future"

[LoneTiger108]

........perhaps there is indeed "Hope for the Future"

there is always hope Dave

[Xian]

Is the Wooden Man a waste of space?

Does it actual serve a purpose?

Does the wooden man train you how to flow, utilize and develop power, use your structure to generate power, use your steps correctly to generate power and also condition your limbs?


Are is the Wooden man only for solo training when you have no real partners to train with.

Should the Wooden Man be apart of Wing Chun if so why?

I think if Wooden Dummy would be useless not so many styles would have adopted it. You can find it in Hung Gar, different Mantis styles, or even Julian Dale seems to use one for its eagle claw. The lesser known "Everlasting Spring"Weng Chun uses also Wooden Dummy.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Sihing73]

Morning,

Thought I would post a few things conisdering some of the things already having been posted.

1. Does the Jong represent a human body? Not really, at least not in any sense of a sparring dummy with the body and arms representing how an opponent stands or how the body will be in position. However, the jong does represent, or perhaps I should say can represent, various parts of the body segments in specific applications. For example, the upper dummy arms can be thought of as the portion of the upper human arm from the elbow back to or even forward to the wrist, depending on technique applied (Taun or Bong and Pak Sau. These do not really represent a punch per se but are more for refining the position of your technique and help show where contact should be as well as refine the angle. Another reason that the arms really can't be said to represent an opponent is that the arms which are not in contact at the time at times "no longer matter as though they do not exist". For example lets say you use your right arm to Pak to the inside of the right (as facing you) you dummy arm. In this instance you would not be concerned with the left dummy arm and it would not in essence exist at that time. However, having said that, there are times when both arms would be in play and in such a case your body position and angle should insure you are out of the line of both. There is a lot more to this than this simple explanation but perhaps this can provide a start.

2. The height of the dummy is an important conisderation but I do not believe it is a racist thing . Different people are different heights, even if of the same race. The dummy was originally made for Yip Man and his body structure, this is one reason why, if one has the money etc. it is a good idea to provide your measurements and have a dummy custom made for you. When playing the dummy your stance should put your upper chest in line with the two upper arms, or at least that is how I was taught. With this in mind, setting the height of your dummy at a lower position will help you train a lower stance and placing it higher will help to train to apply against taller opponents. Also, having a dummy with adjustable height can allow more than one person to use the same dummy and adjust it to fit thier body.

3. The dummy may not "teach" us anything. However I do believe that proper training on the dummy will go a long way to refining our skills. I also believe that working the dummy may result in an AH HA moment where something is made clearer.

4. I think that in real fights attacks to the body do more damage and have caused more knockouts than headshots. Look at Boxing and you can find some real nice bodyshot knockouts, of course there are headshots as well.
A funny thing to me is that many are headhunters when doing Chi Sau

Anyhow, those are some thoughts early in the morning as I prepare to make my kids breakfast and run them to school. Enjoy the rest of your day.

[TenTigers]

Morning,

Thought I would post a few things conisdering some of the things already having been posted.

1. Does the Jong represent a human body? Not really, at least not in any sense of a sparring dummy with the body and arms representing how an opponent stands or how the body will be in position. However, the jong does represent, or perhaps I should say can represent, various parts of the body segments in specific applications. For example, the upper dummy arms can be thought of as the portion of the upper human arm from the elbow back to or even forward to the wrist, depending on technique applied (Taun or Bong and Pak Sau. These do not really represent a punch per se but are more for refining the position of your technique and help show where contact should be as well as refine the angle. Another reason that the arms really can't be said to represent an opponent is that the arms which are not in contact at the time at times "no longer matter as though they do not exist". For example lets say you use your right arm to Pak to the inside of the right (as facing you) you dummy arm. In this instance you would not be concerned with the left dummy arm and it would not in essence exist at that time. However, having said that, there are times when both arms would be in play and in such a case your body position and angle should insure you are out of the line of both. There is a lot more to this than this simple explanation but perhaps this can provide a start.

2. The height of the dummy is an important conisderation but I do not believe it is a racist thing . Different people are different heights, even if of the same race. The dummy was originally made for Yip Man and his body structure, this is one reason why, if one has the money etc. it is a good idea to provide your measurements and have a dummy custom made for you. When playing the dummy your stance should put your upper chest in line with the two upper arms, or at least that is how I was taught. With this in mind, setting the height of your dummy at a lower position will help you train a lower stance and placing it higher will help to train to apply against taller opponents. Also, having a dummy with adjustable height can allow more than one person to use the same dummy and adjust it to fit thier body.

3. The dummy may not "teach" us anything. However I do believe that proper training on the dummy will go a long way to refining our skills. I also believe that working the dummy may result in an AH HA moment where something is made clearer.

4. I think that in real fights attacks to the body do more damage and have caused more knockouts than headshots. Look at Boxing and you can find some real nice bodyshot knockouts, of course there are headshots as well.
A funny thing to me is that many are headhunters when doing Chi Sau

Anyhow, those are some thoughts early in the morning as I prepare to make my kids breakfast and run them to school. Enjoy the rest of your day.

great post. You're putting out some great information, which is really why we have a forum.
Graham, why don't you share your thoughts on the MYJ, rather than simply stating that you know and everybody else does not, which in my opinion, is not contributing.

[LoneTiger108]

Graham, why don't you share your thoughts on the MYJ, rather than simply stating that you know and everybody else does not, which in my opinion, is not contributing.

You may be wasting your breath.

And I agree. Daves post was good. But great? That's all I will say

[TenTigers]

You may be wasting your breath.

And I agree. Daves post was good. But great? That's all I will say

And in saying that.....

when all you see is back and forth t1t for tat, it is a breath of fresh air.

Although not a WC practitioner (used to study it years ago) I still use my jong.
I use it for power generation, rooting, positioning, conditioning.
Whenever I get an idea, I like to work it out on the jong, work my placement, distance, angles, footwork.
Then..I grab my Si-Dai and play with it.
THEN..I grab my Si-Hing and play with it.
Lastly, I play with my Sifu..
get trashed....
and go back to the jong...