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Thread: Mook Yan Jong - is it useless?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyvt View Post
    Well I'm a white man and I'm 165cm so that's got to be the dumbest racist statement ever. So what do you do against a black hit as they are all bigger and quicker.
    Racist? What makes that racist? I am only 5'4" tall, and most white men are indeed much taller than that. I am probably average of the Chinese men that I know. And hey, color don't matter. I would hit a black man just as soon as I would hit a white man. I have even been known to hit a chinaman. And you said that the black man is quicker and bigger, not me. Is that racist? I bet you even think Chinc is a racist slur.
    Jackie Lee

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Which means you obviously don't understand it.



    No it's not......sorry I should say it doesn't in my lineage. If you want to work out on a stubby limbed man with one arm sticking out his belly and one leg who can't move then who am I to argue?


    It does not! That is the general opinion in WC but we all know by now the reasons for that.



    That is just completely wrong.............................IMO






    Before we get embroiled in another flame war lets just say that we have two completely different ideas on Ving Tsun. The only problem is that I "used" to have the same ideas as you until I found a better path.
    GH
    Thats fine. We all have our own opinions. I don't think that I have any illusions about the jong or it's use, have used one for a very long time. It is a very important piece of equipment I think.
    Rather than tell me that I am wrong, why not tell me what you think is right. Explain the specific purpose you spoke of. I only know about my own Wing Chun, and have never heard of all these other lineages spoken of. I would enjoy reading what you feel is the real purpose of the jong. I am not into all the philosophical stuff that is often tossed around. I am a practical man.
    Jackie Lee

  3. #33
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    I don't know who invented the jong, but he was a sharp man. I also realize that it has taken many shapes over the years. If a person wants to practice or train his attack and defense and has no one to practice on, he does what he can. He makes a simulation of another person. He can beat the hell ouf ot this other person with no complaints. Not the same, but better than nothing.
    Most people don't take a stance with both their arms extended full length, so stubby is the way to go. If you fight the average person, not another WC person, but the average person on the street, he will usually attempt to box with you. He will hold his arms closer in to his body to cover up and defend himself. Stubby arms at best. Most people will extend a foot forward when boxing. Well, in most fighting stances they do that. And on occasion someone will indeed attempt an uppercut or a low or belly punch. The jong is built with all that in mind. It was not to conceal any mysterious stuff or create anything other than to allow one to just turn loose.
    I read and hear of time, space, and energy and all that stuff, but it really don't mean anything. It can all be put into plain and simple terms, mostly because there is no mystery about it at all. I started training WC 56 years ago now, and I have been enlightened, unenlightened, enlightened again, and finally, I have come to realize that it is all just very simple and there are no mysteries in WC.
    Jackie Lee

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runlikehell View Post
    You haven't recently gone into the business of making and selling mook jong's have you? That sounds like a marketing ploy.

    It disappoints me that you would consider even for a moment that I would seek to profit from disaster
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I started training WC 56 years ago now, and I have been enlightened, unenlightened, enlightened again, and finally, I have come to realize that it is all just very simple and there are no mysteries in WC.
    Well said Jackie. You actually sound like my own Sifu! Although even he hasn't had the years you have notched up.

    Being a literal baby to the system I too have had my ups and downs, especially with regards to the wooden man practise as I could never understand how what I was seeing was high level stuff. The 108 wasn't a big part of my learning, and it was taught quite differently than what I saw (but the same in many respects!) Once I saw it actually moving, I was hooked.

    Recently I revised the whole thing and can see now what I coudln't see 10 years ago. The wooden man simply rocks imho!! And I definitely woudln't have had to get my own one if I had stayed training with my Sifu, as I always used his ones.

    This is what I mean by the wooden man representing your Sifu. It reminds you what is and isn't necessary. It hurts you if you go wild. And it gradually helps to build you into a very specific type of Martial Artist. I find it is also one of the best teaching tools we have in Wing Chun, but that's just my opinion.
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 09-29-2011 at 02:04 AM.
    Ti Fei
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  6. #36
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    Ok you not only is it dumb to change the height as prole you fight is talle most people are taller then me. It doesn't matter to me what colour their skin is. The dummy is set at a certain height to teach porper position etc. The bit about black guys being bigger was an extension of the type of thinking represented by your post. What do you Do if you fight someone that's your height or smaller as your dummy work would be useless going by your thinking. Its about learning to be in the best position, sparing and chisao is where you learn to apply it in all ranges and against different heights

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by bennyvt View Post
    Ok you not only is it dumb to change the height as prole you fight is talle most people are taller then me. It doesn't matter to me what colour their skin is. The dummy is set at a certain height to teach porper position etc. The bit about black guys being bigger was an extension of the type of thinking represented by your post. What do you Do if you fight someone that's your height or smaller as your dummy work would be useless going by your thinking. Its about learning to be in the best position, sparing and chisao is where you learn to apply it in all ranges and against different heights
    Correct!! At last!

    The dummy is set in a way for checking and improving position. The angle of the top two arms and the height check your elbow postion. The leg and the middle arm are for reference. The "limbs" do not represent a human beings arms and legs. The dummy cannot fight you back. It is true that the dummy will show you your mistakes because it corrects your position.

    Lets take Spencers dummy as an example. It's too high so you won't be able to train the correct postions. All you can do is make some WC moves on it that will be incorrect.

    The dummy has to be tailored to the individual. The height of the arms is essential and should be set to around mid chest height so that when we "play" it, it gives feedback for the correct elbow position. When we close into the dummy three points should always meet so we can also improve syncronicity of movement and perfect structure. That is the reason for the dummy limbs. The limbs also define the limits in which you can move because in fighting a common mistake is to overshoot. The dummy also teaches one how to recover from bad postion.

    All the posts above would be incorrect in my lineage. In order to understand the dummy you have possess a certain way of thinking. Any fool can say it is to practice your techniques on.

    So the answert to the original question is that without the dummy we would not be able to improve our actions. It is no way useless. Some people can grasp the thinking behind the dummy whilst other take 10 years and they are still finding stuff out.

    I wonder who that is!

    GH
    Last edited by Graham H; 09-30-2011 at 02:33 AM.

  8. #38
    ........................misinterpreted versions beleive that Ving Tsun is about controlling with the wrist. It's not! its about developing control with the elbow. SLT starts this process. CK teaches how to use this process and the dummy improves this process. Obviously something that Yip Man only taught to his more gifted students.

    GH

  9. #39
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    Good to see I brouht the teacher out of you. I like your explanations when you give them

  10. #40
    Thanks but my post only touches the surface. I'm not going to write a big article on the wooden man because I know some clowns will come on here and rubbish it! That is Wing Chun today!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Lets take Spencers dummy as an example. It's too high so you won't be able to train the correct postions. All you can do is make some WC moves on it that will be incorrect.

    The dummy has to be tailored to the individual. The height of the arms is essential and should be set to around mid chest height so that when we "play" it, it gives feedback for the correct elbow position.
    According to this logic, Ip Man is wrong in all his publicised photos of him using his own wooden man?



    And I am obviously wrong according to your view, but your idea of top arms pointing to 'centre chest' is just incorrect (from my own learning) because one arm will be at the right pectoral, the other will be almost at left shoulder height.

    Let me ask you a question Graham (if you want to be serious?) Do you strike the wooden man above the top arms? And what does that represent to you?

    Having the arms at the height I suggest means I am drilling my fistwork (chongkuen) into the throat, not the chest or face. Only subtle difference, but I'm sure you will apreciate what I'm saying, being a fighter and all...


    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    ... So the answert to the original question is that without the dummy we would not be able to improve our actions. It is no way useless. Some people can grasp the thinking behind the dummy whilst other take 10 years and they are still finding stuff out.

    I wonder who that is!
    You just can't help yourself can you?

    I will say what I think now about having the arms pointing at the centre of the chest:

    It is fine if you're punching the body of the mook jong above the upper arms, but I do not (ever!) do that. I drill 'into' the triangle of the top two arms as in my clip.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBv5o...ayer_embedded#!
    My Sifu showing the fistwork
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEz8p...eature=related

    According to what you're saying, your bongsau elbow position will be quite low (lower than the centre of the chest!) and open to attacks to your own throat and head, like a good right hook. It will work very well against your own, but y'know what I'm saying?!

    Your lower wooden man arm will be pointing almost to your nuts (?) when mine is at the navel to solar plexus. As a test, I ask anyone to try this, press your upper arm into your own body then move your elbow into your centre line. How far does the elbow go? I'd say right into your solar plexus (unless you have extremely long upper arms or your back is folded over like a prawn!! lol!) That is our reasoning as the arm positions, whether you think so or not, are related to a human being!

    Again, these are just little differences that do cause arguments BUT I'm not concerned if you think my way is wrong because I know it works for me, just as you are not concerned about my opinion I would guess. I just see things as different, and I acknowledge that everybody has their own preferred methods, without trying to take a cheap shot or insult peoples teachers and his teacher/s.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  12. #42
    According to this logic, Ip Man is wrong in all his publicised photos of him using his own wooden man?
    That is a publicity shot Spencer. I asked the same question myself!!!!!

    And I am obviously wrong according to your view, but your idea of top arms pointing to 'centre chest' is just incorrect (from my own learning) because one arm will be at the right pectoral, the other will be almost at left shoulder height.
    I didnt say center of the chest. The arms have to be roughly in line with your tits! If the dummy has been set correctly then you should be sitting in YJKYM and when you perform the first action (a punch) the elbow should make contact with inside of the corresponding arm somewhere at the end. this is why the angle between the arms and the height are important.


    Let me ask you a question Graham (if you want to be serious?) Do you strike the wooden man above the top arms? And what does that represent to you?
    A punch or a chop!

    Having the arms at the height I suggest means I am drilling my fistwork (chongkuen) into the throat, not the chest or face. Only subtle difference, but I'm sure you will apreciate what I'm saying, being a fighter and all...
    Its not a person!

    You just can't help yourself can you?
    Not where your concerned because you keep going on about this close relationship to Yip Man but I consider that to be wrong!



    According to what you're saying, your bongsau elbow position will be quite low (lower than the centre of the chest!) and open to attacks to your own throat and head, like a good right hook. It will work very well against your own, but y'know what I'm saying?!
    You cannot perform a correct bong sau on the dummy just like some other actions because the dummy is fixed. You have to look at it in shades of grey not black and white. Unless you have been taught this you will not understand.

    Your lower wooden man arm will be pointing almost to your nuts (?) when mine is at the navel to solar plexus. As a test, I ask anyone to try this, press your upper arm into your own body then move your elbow into your centre line. How far does the elbow go? I'd say right into your solar plexus (unless you have extremely long upper arms or your back is folded over like a prawn!! lol!) That is our reasoning as the arm positions, whether you think so or not, are related to a human being!
    Wrong!

    Again, these are just little differences that do cause arguments BUT I'm not concerned if you think my way is wrong because I know it works for me, just as you are not concerned about my opinion I would guess. I just see things as different, and I acknowledge that everybody has their own preferred methods, without trying to take a cheap shot or insult peoples teachers and his teacher/s.
    Thats correct Spencer its "your" way! Originally there were not many versions of Ving Tsun. These many versions today have evloved from misinterpretation, lack of knowledge and by people who just make things up to fill in the gaps!
    Whether you believe or not like it, that is the truth.

    GH
    Last edited by Graham H; 09-30-2011 at 06:55 AM.

  13. #43
    You are not the only one who tries to make assumptions based on photos. People have done it with WSL as well. Video footage is another monster for the same things.

    G

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    That is a publicity shot Spencer. I asked the same question myself!!!!!
    Not according to Ip Chun and my Sigung. They were very precise pictures containing the core of the 108 images. And that was Ip Mans wooden man too, sitting in the same place it had been in for his HK duration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I didnt say center of the chest.
    But you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    A punch or a chop!
    Let's say punch...

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Not where your concerned because you keep going on about this close relationship to Yip Man but I consider that to be wrong!
    And so you will because you have bought into whay you have been told too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Originally there were not many versions of Ving Tsun. These many versions today have evloved from misinterpretation, lack of knowledge and by people who just make things up to fill in the gaps!
    Whether you believe or not like it, that is the truth.
    I KNOW that is the truth, it's just you think my Sigung was a part of all that whereas I would be looking more at the ones who made their living from Wing Chun, because that's where the changes had to be made! What is your hang up with other families possibly having a closer relationship to Ip Man?? Have you been blinded by a movie or something?? It's admirable that you have the loyalty, but... well I will leave it there.

    The more quality time you have with a Sifu the less chance you have of misinterpreting anything, and I am comfortable knowing I spent enough time to iron out these things you argue about.
    Ti Fei
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    You are not the only one who tries to make assumptions based on photos. People have done it with WSL as well. Video footage is another monster for the same things.
    Yet, this is what people ask for all the time??!!!

    I even saw on FB that Dave Peterson had cross words with a lifetime friend of WSL about a photo of himself with a pole being different than what WSLs friend remembered

    Same goes for video. Actually, this is where the poison leaked for the first time into the Wing Chun community and it has yet to recover imho
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

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