Mook Yan Jong - is it useless?

[Graham H]

Not according to Ip Chun and my Sigung. They were very precise pictures containing the core of the 108 images. And that was Ip Mans wooden man too, sitting in the same place it had been in for his HK duration.

I persnally wouldn't listen to anything Ip Chun says. He has my respect because of the family tie but Wing Chun wise no way!

But you did.

Clutching at straws now me thinks.

And so you will because you have bought into whay you have been told too.

I have bought into a method after studying, trying out and talking to many other lineages. HK and Foshan. Second best would be giving them too much credit.

I KNOW that is the truth, it's just you think my Sigung was a part of all that whereas I would be looking more at the ones who made their living from Wing Chun, because that's where the changes had to be made! What is your hang up with other families possibly having a closer relationship to Ip Man?? Have you been blinded by a movie or something?? It's admirable that you have the loyalty, but... well I will leave it there.

There is only one dude that is blind. You have fallen for a puddle of lies and bad wing chun hook, line and sinker.

The more quality time you have with a Sifu the less chance you have of misinterpreting anything, and I am comfortable knowing I spent enough time to iron out these things you argue about.

I consider you to be involved (along with Austin Goh) in one of the families that has deviated from the path for whatever reason. I would sooner practice Ip Chun Wing Chun or no Wing Chun at all.

I will read your response but I won't reply. I'm bored as I expect everybody else is.

G

[LoneTiger108]

I will read your response but I won't reply. I'm bored as I expect everybody else is.

Considering what you have just posted I don't blame you.

But I will not respond to you either G. Its nice to finally see where your coming from and I respect that.

[wingchunIan]

According to this logic, Ip Man is wrong in all his publicised photos of him using his own wooden man?



And I am obviously wrong according to your view, but your idea of top arms pointing to 'centre chest' is just incorrect (from my own learning) because one arm will be at the right pectoral, the other will be almost at left shoulder height.

Let me ask you a question Graham (if you want to be serious?) Do you strike the wooden man above the top arms? And what does that represent to you?

Having the arms at the height I suggest means I am drilling my fistwork (chongkuen) into the throat, not the chest or face. Only subtle difference, but I'm sure you will apreciate what I'm saying, being a fighter and all...




You just can't help yourself can you?

I will say what I think now about having the arms pointing at the centre of the chest:

It is fine if you're punching the body of the mook jong above the upper arms, but I do not (ever!) do that. I drill 'into' the triangle of the top two arms as in my clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBv5o...ayer_embedded#!
My Sifu showing the fistwork
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEz8p...eature=related

According to what you're saying, your bongsau elbow position will be quite low (lower than the centre of the chest!) and open to attacks to your own throat and head, like a good right hook. It will work very well against your own, but y'know what I'm saying?!

Your lower wooden man arm will be pointing almost to your nuts (?) when mine is at the navel to solar plexus. As a test, I ask anyone to try this, press your upper arm into your own body then move your elbow into your centre line. How far does the elbow go? I'd say right into your solar plexus (unless you have extremely long upper arms or your back is folded over like a prawn!! lol!) That is our reasoning as the arm positions, whether you think so or not, are related to a human being!

Again, these are just little differences that do cause arguments BUT I'm not concerned if you think my way is wrong because I know it works for me, just as you are not concerned about my opinion I would guess. I just see things as different, and I acknowledge that everybody has their own preferred methods, without trying to take a cheap shot or insult peoples teachers and his teacher/s.

Just as an observation the arms of the dummy at the VTAA are about level with my chest, of course I'm 6'3" so I'm considerably taller than most of the regular pracitioners at the VTAA. Now it could be that they have been kind enough to set the dummy up just like that for when i visit each year but its kind of unlikely so I guess for regular daily visitors to the VTAA the arms are somewhere around their shoulder height (although as they are not all exactly the same height the precise part of their anatomy lining up with the arms will be somewhere between chest and shoulder in most cases). Now of course all of the well known and well respected sifus (respected by anyone with an ounce of sense) including both sons of Ip Man who would have seen (and practised on) their father's dummy daily, who teach at the VTAA could be wrong.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Ok you not only is it dumb to change the height as prole you fight is talle most people are taller then me. It doesn't matter to me what colour their skin is. The dummy is set at a certain height to teach porper position etc. The bit about black guys being bigger was an extension of the type of thinking represented by your post. What do you Do if you fight someone that's your height or smaller as your dummy work would be useless going by your thinking. Its about learning to be in the best position, sparing and chisao is where you learn to apply it in all ranges and against different heights

The only dumb thing here is your hang up with race. It is a fact of life that some races are taller than other races. Nothing racist about that unless mother nature is a racist. The Chinese on average were really short compared to the European races. White folks. And the jong fit them pretty much. When you move up to a head taller, the jong gets too short. It is not that height for a purpose other than the fact of it being something developed and used by short people. If it were developed in Europe, or maybe in Australia, it would likely have been a bit taller.
My own jong had the ability of being altered in elevation. The way you guys talk, some Chinaman sat down and put all this special meaning into his little invention so as to be all special and mysterious. I personally doubt that. He was probably just a bit ambitious and went to sticking broom handles into a tree or post and went from there. Adding a leg, maybe another arm. Or maybe someone else took it another step. Everyone is always looking for special, hidden meanings in the forms and in the dummy, and this my friend is why so many people laugh at Wing Chun.

[bennyvt]

The height should depend on. The person playing it not the size of the person you think you ill be fighting that is my point

[Graham H]

Just as an observation the arms of the dummy at the VTAA are about level with my chest, of course I'm 6'3" so I'm considerably taller than most of the regular pracitioners at the VTAA. Now it could be that they have been kind enough to set the dummy up just like that for when i visit each year but its kind of unlikely so I guess for regular daily visitors to the VTAA the arms are somewhere around their shoulder height (although as they are not all exactly the same height the precise part of their anatomy lining up with the arms will be somewhere between chest and shoulder in most cases). Now of course all of the well known and well respected sifus (respected by anyone with an ounce of sense) including both sons of Ip Man who would have seen (and practised on) their father's dummy daily, who teach at the VTAA could be wrong.

The dummy should be set to the person using it. The dummy in VTAA is set for general use. There are a lot of people that use that dummy and it would be impossible to set it for every single person. It's better set a little high if this is the case as taller people wouldn't be able to move around it too good from a very low stance. If one's teacher knows his stuff then these things should be explained as WSL explained it to my Teacher and him to me.

I am one of those senseless people you must be reffering to. I studied Ip chun Wing Chun for quite a few years. I also have a close friend who studied Ip Ching Wing Chun for many years. They are different systems for some obscure reason.

My own opinion is that WSL's way of thinking a fighting is head and shoulders above those two guys but that is just "MY" opinion.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder or so they say.

GH

[k gledhill]

The dummy should be set to the person using it. The dummy in VTAA is set for general use. There are a lot of people that use that dummy and it would be impossible to set it for every single person. It's better set a little high if this is the case as taller people wouldn't be able to move around it too good from a very low stance. If one's teacher knows his stuff then these things should be explained as WSL explained it to my Teacher and him to me.

I am one of those senseless people you must be reffering to. I studied Ip chun Wing Chun for quite a few years. I also have a close friend who studied Ip Ching Wing Chun for many years. They are different systems for some obscure reason.

My own opinion is that WSL's way of thinking a fighting is head and shoulders above those two guys but that is just "MY" opinion.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder or so they say.

GH

Agree about different , I have chi-saoed with both sons

[k gledhill]

The dummy is a workout station for us, with fixed arms/points, on an immovable vertical axis line. Based on VT tactical objectives drilling on a MYJ will show the ease with which a humans axis can be utilized against any size, both physically and opportunistically.

Our displacing 'shock force', Ging, aka kinetic displacing energy is maximized, contained within the parameters of the fixed angle arms.

The delivery of the VT UNITY makes 1 sound :
Using synchronistic ideas of lat sao chet chung, simultaneous delivery of attacking limbs and body weight in motion we cycle repeatedly through lin sil di dar (simultaneous attack/defense) on a broader level while at the same time developing individual arms with da sao jik siu sao ( attacking hand in the lead is also the defending centered elbow, jum/tan, 1cm or death ), with faat lik siu lik (issue force, dispersing force) at all times.

The dummy constrains our motion within its angles, it is fixed so we are stopped sharply within our own boundaries rather than go past certain points opening ourselves to 'ourselves'. We shift our stances to coincide with arms. We learn to release power and relax. How to avoid having our own force disrupt us , pull ourselves off balance, push ourselves off balance, correct our structure angles, hips in out ? shoulders square at every exchange, facing chasing , pivoting force....

The dummy is not a person, means it isn't the focus of our turning away from and then turning back to refacing like misinterpreted chi-sao, as if it was a person we turned away from, then turned back again ! Wherever we turn is where the attack line is, ie our centerline points at our opponent, except in case of BG where we have made an error and overturned requiring recovery/correction...

This centerline of ours can point to unseen areas besides the dummy body, ergo we move off to the sides as if we have gone to attack an imaginary position, then return to the dummy as if continuing to attack a target shifting back towards the dummy's main body position.
This is a confusing part of chisao, when guys try to use turning actions to redirect force and think the same on the dummy....so when you engage an arm by turning it becomes a "line of force" to use and cycle on , stepping out of the dummy and re-entering to the sides isnt a 'move' but a drilling action to reface a moving object that went another direction, so we correct ourselves and go after it attacking.

The lateral shifting is attacking footwork "cutting the way" lat sao chet chung on a broader level ,to bear down on a target without stepping with a lead leg into its center, we move laterally to develop this thinking.

One of the things this will give VT practitioners is the idea that you turn to face the target, not to redirect force as another misconception in chi-sao drilling, but face an attack. It changes the foundation of your thinking ....and makes a lot of 'chi-sao moves' redundant to actual fighting, like using two arms equally extended...Why Chi-sao competitions are redudnant to VT fighting ideas, its like re-enforcing wrong ideas in bad drill execution, it should be compliant, but that's another thread !

The height of the dummy as mentioned previously has to allow the individual to develop their prospective elbow / body unity so they dont deliver lifting, reaching, overextended, hinging levers. If you dont understand that, then you're in for a rude reality check. Elbows , elbows, elbows, from inception to fruition....SLT elbows , body . CK elbows body in motion. BG recover elbows , break rules to recover....elbows , body... MYJ is all of the system at work.


There's more but is confusing, unless you share the thinking of YM > WSL> PB > it becomes a new way of thinking, developing.

[Sean66]

Nice post Kevin!

[wingchunIan]

Agree about different , I have chi-saoed with both sons

They are bound to be different. Stand them next to each other and take a look, would anyone really expect them both to be the same in their Wing Chun and especially their chi sao? What they teach however is very very similar allowing for some personal interpretation of the system as taught to them by their father.

[Graham H]

They are bound to be different. Stand them next to each other and take a look, would anyone really expect them both to be the same in their Wing Chun and especially their chi sao? What they teach however is very very similar allowing for some personal interpretation of the system as taught to them by their father.

I understand where you are coming from Ian. I used to believe the same things. Truth is it has nothing to do with how tall they are and they both weren't taught the whole system by Yip Man either. That is fact but Yip Chun especially likes you to think that.

Its not a case of "own personal interpretation". It wasn't until I left the Yip Chun lineage that I saw how wrong his ideas are. Yip Chun and Yip Ching are never listed in the small group of people that Yip Man actually taught much to. Wong Shun Leung was not far off Yip Chun in height so how are you going to explain why they have toatally different ideas about Wing Chun??? Let me guess....."interpretation"? One of my old Teachers used that excuse until I found out that he mainly liked to take pictures and talk rather than train and learn. Blood ties in Ving Tsun mean nothing.

I watched a film the other day about the legend of Yip Man. I was quite enjoying it until Yip Chun stepped up as Leung Bik and started sprouting that nonsense. It does nothing for Yip Man's legendary status IMO. Absolute poppy****!

GH

[Graham H]

good post kev............the first part of the booklet got returned as a faliure notice. I will send again tomorrow. They are on my work PC.

G

[GlennR]

The dummy is a workout station for us, with fixed arms/points, on an immovable vertical axis line. Based on VT tactical objectives drilling on a MYJ will show the ease with which a humans axis can be utilized against any size, both physically and opportunistically.

Our displacing 'shock force', Ging, aka kinetic displacing energy is maximized, contained within the parameters of the fixed angle arms.

The delivery of the VT UNITY makes 1 sound :
Using synchronistic ideas of lat sao chet chung, simultaneous delivery of attacking limbs and body weight in motion we cycle repeatedly through lin sil di dar (simultaneous attack/defense) on a broader level while at the same time developing individual arms with da sao jik siu sao ( attacking hand in the lead is also the defending centered elbow, jum/tan, 1cm or death ), with faat lik siu lik (issue force, dispersing force) at all times.

The dummy constrains our motion within its angles, it is fixed so we are stopped sharply within our own boundaries rather than go past certain points opening ourselves to 'ourselves'. We shift our stances to coincide with arms. We learn to release power and relax. How to avoid having our own force disrupt us , pull ourselves off balance, push ourselves off balance, correct our structure angles, hips in out ? shoulders square at every exchange, facing chasing , pivoting force....

The dummy is not a person, means it isn't the focus of our turning away from and then turning back to refacing like misinterpreted chi-sao, as if it was a person we turned away from, then turned back again ! Wherever we turn is where the attack line is, ie our centerline points at our opponent, except in case of BG where we have made an error and overturned requiring recovery/correction...

This centerline of ours can point to unseen areas besides the dummy body, ergo we move off to the sides as if we have gone to attack an imaginary position, then return to the dummy as if continuing to attack a target shifting back towards the dummy's main body position.
This is a confusing part of chisao, when guys try to use turning actions to redirect force and think the same on the dummy....so when you engage an arm by turning it becomes a "line of force" to use and cycle on , stepping out of the dummy and re-entering to the sides isnt a 'move' but a drilling action to reface a moving object that went another direction, so we correct ourselves and go after it attacking.

The lateral shifting is attacking footwork "cutting the way" lat sao chet chung on a broader level ,to bear down on a target without stepping with a lead leg into its center, we move laterally to develop this thinking.

One of the things this will give VT practitioners is the idea that you turn to face the target, not to redirect force as another misconception in chi-sao drilling, but face an attack. It changes the foundation of your thinking ....and makes a lot of 'chi-sao moves' redundant to actual fighting, like using two arms equally extended...Why Chi-sao competitions are redudnant to VT fighting ideas, its like re-enforcing wrong ideas in bad drill execution, it should be compliant, but that's another thread !

The height of the dummy as mentioned previously has to allow the individual to develop their prospective elbow / body unity so they dont deliver lifting, reaching, overextended, hinging levers. If you dont understand that, then you're in for a rude reality check. Elbows , elbows, elbows, from inception to fruition....SLT elbows , body . CK elbows body in motion. BG recover elbows , break rules to recover....elbows , body... MYJ is all of the system at work.


There's more but is confusing, unless you share the thinking of YM > WSL> PB > it becomes a new way of thinking, developing.

Yes, excellent post Kevin

[k gledhill]

good post kev............the first part of the booklet got returned as a faliure notice. I will send again tomorrow. They are on my work PC.

G

Got the lot ! thanks

[LoneTiger108]

They are bound to be different (Ip Chun & Ip Ching) Stand them next to each other and take a look, would anyone really expect them both to be the same in their Wing Chun and especially their chi sao? What they teach however is very very similar allowing for some personal interpretation of the system as taught to them by their father.

Unfortunately, some people will never have the respect for the Ip Family which is a shame

I know a few of the stories and history surrounding Ip Chuns learning so can also understand why people do not see him as our 'leader', but he has never claimed to be a Master of anything. He promotes his fathers legacy. End of. And if younger generations have an issue with that because of what hey've been told, or learnt in the past, that's their choice.

Personally, I will always respect Ip Mans sons, if only out of loyalty to my Sifus and Sigungs wishes. Without him, the Wing Chun system would have never settled in England.