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Thread: Reconsidering sexual repression?

  1. #1
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    Reconsidering sexual repression?

    Reconsidering sexual repression

    The New York Post has an interesting article up on the price of sex. Summary; more women are giving it up sooner. Between a shortage of men who are marry-up material, competition from other women, and porn, withholding sex to get commitment is no longer a workable strategy Tellingly the article says “those who don’t discount sex say they can’t seem to get anyone to ‘pay’ their higher price. Consequently, younger women are doing an awful lot of first-date or even no-date ****ing, and the marriage rate is steadily dropping.

    The author doesn’t think like a science-fiction fan and encyclopedic synthesist, but I do – so a really alarming second-order consequence jumped out at me. But before I get to that, some historical perspective.



    Before 1960, the price of sex was held fairly high by fear of pregnancy and social stigmatization. Then came the Pill; fear of pregnancy receded and social stigmatization of unwed birth effectively collapsed with it. But in the absence of these restraints, we found out something interesting; women, as a group, want nookie now more than is good for their marriage prospects. That is, the operation of female desire is poorly matched to their most effective reproductive strategy – they’re too easily pulled into casual sex and behaviors they can fool themselves aren’t pure hedonism.

    I could go off on a speculative tear about how humans ended up with such miswiring. That would take us on a ramble through evolutionary bio and might even generate an interesting theory or two. But that would be a distraction, because the most interesting consequences of this observation aren’t in the past but in the future.

    The first difficult thing to accept, after the sexual revolution, is this: sexual repression and the double standard weren’t arbitrary forms of cruelty that societies ended up with by accident. They were functional adaptations. By raising the clearing price that women charged for sex, they actually increased female bargaining power and raised the marriage rate.

    Most people can process that one without wincing. But this next one is a hot potato: the ideology of sexual equality made the problem a lot worse in two different ways. The obvious one was that it encouraged women to believe they could and should be able to act like men without negative consequences – including rising to male levels of promiscuity. The less obvious, but perhaps in the long run more damaging consequence, was that it collided with hypergamy.

    Women are hypergamous. They want to marry men who are bigger, stronger, higher-status, a bit older, and a bit brighter than they are. This is massively confirmed by statistics on actual marriages; only the “a bit brighter” part is even controversial, and most of that controversy is ideological posturing.

    OK, so what happens when women get educated, achieve economic equality, etcetera? Their pool of eligible hypergamic targets shrinks; the princess marrying the swineherd is a fairytale precisely because it’s so rare. More women seeking hypergamy from a higher baseline means the competition for eligible males is more intense, and womens’ ability to withold sex vanishes even supposing they want to. Thus, college campuses today, and plunging marriages rate tomorrow.

    The question becomes: what are we going to give up? Family formation? Sexual equality? Sexual liberty? (By sexual equality I mean the presumption that women should be legally, economically, and educationally equal to men. By sexual liberty I mean both an absence of formal legal sanctions and an absence of guilt and psychological repression.) It looks very much as through we can’t have all three of those sustainably, and (this is the thought that really disturbs me) we may not even get to have more than one.

    If we give up family formation it’s game over; we’ll be outbred by cultures that don’t. So that’s off the table. Following out the logic, the demographic future will belong to cultures that give up either sexual liberty or sexual equality, or both.

    But those options aren’t symmetrical. Because, remember, the problem with today’s sexual economics is not symmetrical. It’s not women who are bailing out of the marriage market in droves, it’s men. Accordingly (as the author of the NY Post recognizes) the odds of rolling back sexual liberty are close to nil. Men don’t have to play on those terms for fundamental bioenergetic reasons (release of semen is cheap), and women post-Pill are demonstrating an unwillingness to try to make them. Because, you know, more sex (see “miswiring”, above).

    I am led to a conclusion I don’t like. That is: Sexual equality is unstable. If women can’t buy marriage with sex, they’ll have to bid submission instead. This tactic also combines well with hypergamic desire – if the mean social power of men is automatically higher than that of women, more potential pairings constitute marrying up.

    I don’t have a submissive wife and never wanted one. I like strong and independent women. It therefore horrifies me to reach the conclusion that sexually repressive patriarchies may after all be a better deal for most womens’ reproductive success than the relative equality they have now is. But that’s where the logic leads.
    Psalms 144:1
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    thats what happens when you get too much power, too much riches, too much happiness.

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    I don't know if I agree with ANY part of what the writer said, bu he does raise a concern I have heard a few times already:
    the "fear" that women being sexually liberated and deciding to not have kids, may cause the "democratic and progressive" socities to be "over run" by the more "totalitarian and oppressive" ones.

    By sheer numbers is by nothing else.

    Not so much by invasion or military action, but by imigration and "political control" of majority parties.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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    If you feed a dog and help it prosper, it won't turn on you and be dissatisfied.
    This is what distinguishes them from humans for the most part nest to the whole being a dog thing...

    also, authoritarian rule is coming and the order gets shorter every day.
    democracy can't work very well in divided communities.

    all of north america is politically divided between right and left and the moderates are a rare breed. It is much easier to implement authoritarianism in this environment than it is to do it in a true democracy.
    Last edited by David Jamieson; 09-29-2011 at 12:21 PM.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I don't know if I agree with ANY part of what the writer said, bu he does raise a concern I have heard a few times already:
    the "fear" that women being sexually liberated and deciding to not have kids, may cause the "democratic and progressive" socities to be "over run" by the more "totalitarian and oppressive" ones.

    By sheer numbers is by nothing else.

    Not so much by invasion or military action, but by imigration and "political control" of majority parties.
    There is only one thing left to do...and do it often! I'll do my part starting tonight Sanjuro Ronin.

    New Rules:

    1) If she's ugly, leave early. Leave ugly kids for the oppressive totalitarian types.

    2) If she's below your standards, lower your standards. I'm doing it, repeatedly, for democracy!

    3) Above all else, remember that any chick looks good with your **** in her mouth!

    All of this during the high holy days...I truly am blessed.
    "if its ok for shaolin wuseng to break his vow then its ok for me to sneak behind your house at 3 in the morning and bang your dog if buddha is in your heart then its ok"-Bawang

    "I get what you have said in the past, but we are not intuitive fighters. As instinctive fighters, we can chuck spears and claw and bite. We are not instinctively god at punching or kicking."-Drake

    "Princess? LMAO hammer you are such a pr^t"-Frost

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hebrew Hammer View Post
    There is only one thing left to do...and do it often! I'll do my part starting tonight Sanjuro Ronin.

    New Rules:

    1) If she's ugly, leave early. Leave ugly kids for the oppressive totalitarian types.

    2) If she's below your standards, lower your standards. I'm doing it, repeatedly, for democracy!

    3) Above all else, remember that any chick looks good with your **** in her mouth!

    All of this during the high holy days...I truly am blessed.
    L'Shanah Tovah to you my brother !
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #7
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    Thanks Chief! Have a Yom Tov yerself.
    "if its ok for shaolin wuseng to break his vow then its ok for me to sneak behind your house at 3 in the morning and bang your dog if buddha is in your heart then its ok"-Bawang

    "I get what you have said in the past, but we are not intuitive fighters. As instinctive fighters, we can chuck spears and claw and bite. We are not instinctively god at punching or kicking."-Drake

    "Princess? LMAO hammer you are such a pr^t"-Frost

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    I understand where the author is coming from. But I have to disagree with a large majority of the article.

    First off, it wasn't but about a year or two ago there were a number of articles running that were illustrating the exact opposite. That with the new found power among females (job advancement, income, etc.), women (at least in western society) are experiencing less PRESSURE to marry up. And the result being, more and more white collar women were dating and marrying blue collar. So, if true, that pretty much takes the rug out from under the author right there.

    But on a more convoluted level. The author is viewing the issue from the typical western lenses. I disagree with the entire concept of what is a "proper" family/marriage to begin with. The author is mixing concepts, social "fitness" and true, biological fitness (the ability to survive and reproduce). While there are some overlaps, they are not the same and that is how the author is presenting the argument. But I guess that's to be expected. True biologists/anthropologists don't really write coffee break articles for the Post.

    Aside from the whole sexual equality bit, the author is making an argument that the (i'm assuming as its not explicitly stated) western idea of the nuclear family is being lost and that will cause our society to be out bred. First off, we were a minority in the world to begin with. Secondly, there is no real evidence that the nuclear family is any more beneficial than other family structures that exist. The ultimate goal is to raise a properly function (ie mentally stable, productive, intelligent, etc.) member of society to carry on the species. And to a secondary task, personal culture. But this idea of mother/father, nuclear family etc. is unnecessary. All that is needed is a home to provide for the physical needs (food, shelter, etc.) and loving "parents" to provide the emotional. Humans have been doing that for thousands of years before legal contracts ever came into the fold.

    As to the sex part. Women have the same biological functions as men. Half of fitness is reproduction. And that takes more than just a man and some seed. The other half is the female. And imagine that, women are just as ***** as we are. Honestly, I think its a good thing. Most women view sexual prowess to be just an important issue of a relationship as any other. If its important, might as well find out before you tie the knot. That goes both ways. Some women are just lazy ****s.

    Anyways, this response is all over the place. Been writing lab reports all day and my brain is fried. Basically the three issues: Sexual liberty and sexual equality, in this case are not mutually exclusive. Family formation was a matter of cultural selection and not all cultures form families the same. The nuclear family is actually a limitation as far as numbers go. The main benefit was economic.

    The author says its the men who are avoiding marriage. But there are also studies showing that its not gender based at all. Simply, more people are becoming educated. More people are placing family as a lower priority. And there's a link between education and socioeconomic success with a choice to abstain from procreation (assuming is the main driving force to commit to marriage). Simply put, more people are deciding there's already enough people in the world.

    Yeah that's a big wall of random text. And I didn't even go into any biology in the whole mix....

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    I watched a documentary once that was done in the UK. It was called the Bluebird syndrome I think. It states that women marry a man that is easy to manipulate and that is a good provider for her nest. She quite often goes down the street in search of genes though, and through dna tests, about 35% of most children are fathered by someone other than the marriage partner. Even though he is dad and pays the dues. This makes a profound statement about women in general.
    A woman that leaves her man will never do so without somewhere to go or someone to go to. There is always another man involved. She can demonize you in order to ease her own conscience. They can fall in love just to make it right and to remove the stigmatism of being a **** or *****. If a man thinks he knows a woman well, he is in for a rude awakening one day. You can love a woman, make her life grand, see to her every need, just don't put your trust in her.
    Jackie Lee

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    why are you such a negative nancy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    why are you such a negative nancy
    He raises an interesting question...some of the finest women I've ever known are sexually repressed...or were hehe.
    "if its ok for shaolin wuseng to break his vow then its ok for me to sneak behind your house at 3 in the morning and bang your dog if buddha is in your heart then its ok"-Bawang

    "I get what you have said in the past, but we are not intuitive fighters. As instinctive fighters, we can chuck spears and claw and bite. We are not instinctively god at punching or kicking."-Drake

    "Princess? LMAO hammer you are such a pr^t"-Frost

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    I would like to see a link to something referencing that data and how it's broken down. Because I suspect that with a number such as 35% we are talking about a step father as opposed to a woman not holding to fidelity.


    After all, there are three kinds of lies.

    lies, dam lies and statistics.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I would like to see a link to something referencing that data and how it's broken down. Because I suspect that with a number such as 35% we are talking about a step father as opposed to a woman not holding to fidelity.


    After all, there are three kinds of lies.

    lies, dam lies and statistics.
    Saw a similar study in the US. But the numbers were far less dramatic. Somewhere between 2-5% were children conceived of extra marital affairs. Even those numbers are suspect though. This kind of data is the type that has to be divulged willfully. I wouldn't trust the numbers either way.

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    The worst form of discrimination is trying to make equal things that are not.

    I don't like the idea of the contraceptive pill. Hormones change behaviour, regularly changing your hormones changes personality.

    But all that aside I think reduced birth-rate is probably a natural progression as a society advances. It is kind of scary to think we will soon be so hugely outnumbered by people from lesser societies. We could start cloning.....

    Kind of makes you glad for China's 1 child policy huh....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I watched a documentary once that was done in the UK. It was called the Bluebird syndrome I think. It states that women marry a man that is easy to manipulate and that is a good provider for her nest. She quite often goes down the street in search of genes though, and through dna tests, about 35% of most children are fathered by someone other than the marriage partner. Even though he is dad and pays the dues. This makes a profound statement about women in general.
    A woman that leaves her man will never do so without somewhere to go or someone to go to. There is always another man involved. She can demonize you in order to ease her own conscience. They can fall in love just to make it right and to remove the stigmatism of being a **** or *****. If a man thinks he knows a woman well, he is in for a rude awakening one day. You can love a woman, make her life grand, see to her every need, just don't put your trust in her.
    Roger that!
    That being said, respect, honour and dignity should not be eschewed to satisfy base goals.

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