Choy Lee Fut VS Pak Mei

[hskwarrior]

Its a beautiful form that shows the heart of good CLF.

you can't speak to a wall. Forms just go right over his head.

[Ben Gash]

While it is a nice form, I'm sure that Ray means that it can't be viewed in isolation from this stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xnxkvhjlnc and deemed to be the best there is.

[Indrafist]

If the issue is 'fighting' whatever that means, then as has been said here a gazillion times before: people, not styles, fight. That said, and I'm not a CLF practitioner, CLF is IMHO one of the best styles in all of TCMA. What an individual does with what it has to offer, is down to them... the 'style' doesn't 'fight'. I can see a huge amount of stuff in it, massive potential. If someone can't see that (what it has to offer) then that's every bit as personally valid as me seeing what is really good (in the style). It's all down to people, styles aren't mass-production lines, even some instructors try to make them that way. Re the individual practitioners in the forms shown earlier, there's plenty to see that suggests great skill, motion and structure. What they do with that is, down to them, but it is there.

[doug maverick]

What CLF school you talking about? I don't recall where this guy's at, but I'd bet he's a very good teacher:

http://choyleefut-hungsing.blogspot.com/

it could be undercranked(sped up) slightly, pretty much any fightscene/action scene in a movie is sped up, you wouldnt know the difference if its done right....not saying it is or it isnt. just saying if it was done right you wouldnt know.

[Ray Pina]

The direction the topic has taken is one of people saying one style is better than another. It raises my curiosity because it's already been determined that none of these styles are producing competitive level fighters.... so now we're basing a styles effectiveness on form? Just want to be clear on what data is being weighed to make the assessment.

Personally, if I'm going strictly on form I prefer Hsing-I and Taiji for mechanics. Ba Gua for position/strategy. The forms are more simple but stick to important fundamentals.

But again, personally, my opinion, forms are a way to string out students and dangle a carrot over their head to keep them paying and fill class time when a teacher hasn't learned how to train a fighter. And the process gets handed down and repeated to new students.

[hskwarrior]

If the issue is 'fighting' whatever that means, then as has been said here a gazillion times before: people, not styles, fight. That said, and I'm not a CLF practitioner, CLF is IMHO one of the best styles in all of TCMA. What an individual does with what it has to offer, is down to them..

Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT. China's revolutions were the chosen the place our elders sharpened their skills. that, and many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death. That was great for them and good for us because at least we get to learn tried and tested techniques that work. Still, like you mentioned, its the individual who makes the style work for him. regardless of any effectiveness CLF has to offer, the style is only as good as the fighter using it.

[Ray Pina]

Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT.

Then where are all of it's fighters?

[Ben Gash]

CLF is pretty well represented in San Shou events.

[hskwarrior]

The direction the topic has taken is one of people saying one style is better than another. It raises my curiosity because it's already been determined that none of these styles are producing competitive level fighters

YOU are the only one talking about "BETTER THAN THIS OR THAT". The direction it was ACTUALLY going was did the creator of the video speed it up to make him look faster.

Personally, if I'm going strictly on form I prefer Hsing-I and Taiji for mechanics. Ba Gua for position/strategy. The forms are more simple but stick to important fundamentals.

Choy Lee Fut HAS this....ALL of it..... plus more

But again, personally, my opinion, forms are a way to string out students and dangle a carrot over their head to keep them paying and fill class time when a teacher hasn't learned how to train a fighter. And the process gets handed down and repeated to new students.
__________________

Yeah yeah yeah....we know you feel this way already. Has anyone changed their opinion on forms because of your personal dislike for them? that would be a check in the NO! box. here's a secret.....ITS CALLED TRADITION as in TRADITIONAL CMA.

[Ray Pina]

CLF is pretty well represented in San Shou events.

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

[Jimbo]

When were people saying that a style's (in this case CLF) effectiveness is based on how somebody plays a form? And who said all of CLF is only forms?

These are the very same types of comments that many 'modern' MAists accuse TCMAists of always making (which may be true; only it actually goes both ways). It's beyond played out. It's as if nobody can ask, discuss or share anything without someone inserting some type of put-down. And no, it's not a constructive argument.

I remember some time back, hskwarrior advised someone who'd posted a question that if you listen too much to some people's comments on these forums, you'll become discouraged from wanting to learn ANYthing. That's very true.

To the original question, pick the environment/art that you feel best suits you, and the teacher you would feel most comfortable with. Neither CLF nor Pak Mei/Bak Mei is better than the other. There is only what is best (or the best available) for yourself.

[Ray Pina]

Yeah yeah yeah....we know you feel this way already. Has anyone changed their opinion on forms because of your personal dislike for them? that would be a check in the NO! box. here's a secret.....ITS CALLED TRADITION as in TRADITIONAL CMA.

You get very defensive.

I specifically added that my posts were my opinion. Am I not entitled to an opinion?

Here's a secret: those death matches never happened and there's nothing traditional about beating on a styrofoam noodle. You use those to relax in a swimming pool.

There are statements being made and I'm simply asking for substance. You said "CLF was created to FIGHT"...you put the emphasis on fight.

TKD wins every TKD tournament. TCMA won the True2Form..... if CLF was created to fight, and everyone is training traditionally, wouldn't you expect to see SOME CLF fighters competing and winning open international tournaments? Perhaps producing some Golden Glove boxers.

Boxing was made to fight. There are thousands and thousands of ranked boxers. Probably millions throughout the ages.

I respect your love for the style. Express your opinions. But don't talk shiznit.

[Golden Arms]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

Ray,

San Shou, at least out here, is open to anyone that wishes to fight within those rules. The basic rules are pretty much: Full contact kickboxing rules + throws are allowed if done within 3-5 seconds of the clinch. In San Shou I have fought Shooto, Muay Thai, Pancration, Kickboxing, Kung Fu, TKD, Boxing, and Karate guys, as well as a few guys that primarily did Greco Roman. There are now some school here that train people in San Shou itself, but on this coast at least, it has been open to all styles that want in for at least 10 years.

[Ben Gash]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

That wasn't the question you asked, now was it? You asked where the Choy Li Fut fighters were, I pointed to their participation in legitimate full contact events, you tried to change the argument

[hskwarrior]

Here's a secret: those death matches never happened and there's nothing traditional about beating on a styrofoam noodle. You use those to relax in a swimming pool.

The styrofoam as you saw it is NOT a CLF invention and can be traced back to the Teacher. Bak Pei Sifu uses that too here in SF. However, I don't use that. But i understand why they do. And, sure they (DEATH MATCHES) didn't happen, just because you said so. LOL

I specifically added that my posts were my opinion. Am I not entitled to an opinion?

Yes, We all know this. unfortunately.

There are statements being made and I'm simply asking for substance. You said "CLF was created to FIGHT"...you put the emphasis on fight.

I've Shown you CLF in the ring. Its your own fault you can't see it.
whether it was up to YOUR individual liking DOESN'T matter. they were in the ring and FIGHTING. they weren't in the ring doing TRU2FORM.

Here is a link of CLF FIGHTS coming up this week in HONG KONG: http://www.u23p.com/datadetail.php?key=12290 DOesn't look like TRU2FORM to me

Perhaps producing some Golden Glove boxers.

How did we go from CLF to boxing again?
But, my sifu has trained BOXERS who used some CLF techniques in the ring, but at the moment i forget his name.

I respect your love for the style. Express your opinions. But don't talk shiznit

Thanks. I don't talk ****. half of what i say to you is tongue in cheek cause i want you to lighten up. We're here to fraternize as Martial Artists, you seem to be here in a competitive nature but these are just words on a forum. relax a bit bro. we all have passion for what we do. good thing is we all don't do the same thing or it would be really boring around here.

peace