Choy Lee Fut VS Pak Mei

[Ray Pina]

When were people saying that a style's (in this case CLF) effectiveness is based on how somebody plays a form?

These comments were made:

Good CLF is amongst the best TCMA there is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_DuRzmgGc

Its a beautiful form that shows the heart of good CLF.

Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT. China's revolutions were the chosen the place our elders sharpened their skills. that, and many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death. That was great for them and good for us because at least we get to learn tried and tested techniques that work.

Choy Lee Fut HAS this....ALL of it..... plus more

... after someone asked for a comparison and the evidence to support such statements was a form video.

If someone asked me if I thought they should train MMA or TCMA. And since this is a forum and we can only use words or better yet, video, to prove arguments, I would post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomhzXJ1Xvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI

I remember some time back, hskwarrior advised someone who'd posted a question that if you listen too much to some people's comments on these forums, you'll become discouraged from wanting to learn ANYthing. That's very true.

So if someone calls into question the way the majority of TCMA is being trained people get discouraged and want to quit?

I would say those people aren't really interested in learning martial arts.

I want my weaknesses highlighted so I can improve them. I want that because I want to be the best martial artist I can be. More so than clinging to any idea or tradition. The tradition of martial arts is to be the best you can be. Also one of self enlightenment, which can't begin until one is truthful with themself.

To the original question, pick the environment/art that you feel best suits you, and the teacher you would feel most comfortable with. Neither CLF nor Pak Mei/Bak Mei is better than the other. There is only what is best (or the best available) for yourself.

Very true.

But the minute one asks for a comparison, then weights and measures are required. And martial arts in general is an issue of comparison which goes back to my major overall point: martial arts are about combat effectiveness. If form plays a role in this is up to each individual's preference. But results, again, can me measured. TCMA's results are not good.

Be discouraged. Attack me personally. Continue down the same path.... again, that's for the individual to decide. Its your martial art. You determine if its coal or a diamond.... which is ironic, because that's a matter of pressure. Which you don't get from form and non resistance training.

[hskwarrior]

Below is a newspaper article of a Challenge Match with a Russian Boxer vs a Choy Lee Fut master. But i guess that never happened either huh?

HERE IS A VIDEO of the person in the article: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rANnZC3WIQ




Another story of CLF vs A boxer in the early 1900's:

"Lau Chung was a well-known Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut practitioner teaching in Hong Kong. During this period, a foreign military officer by the name of Norris offered a cash prize to any Chinese boxer who could defeat him in a match. Defeating many of the local Chinese boxers made Norris boastful and arrogant. Lau Chung took on the challenge and ended the fight by breaking Norris’s ribs with an elbow strike. As the fight was fought under gloved western boxing rules, the elbow strike that Lau Chung had executed was considered an illegal technique. From the hospital Norris ordered Lau Chung’s capture for his offense. As the foreign military leaders would no doubt do him great harm for his actions, Lau Chung decided to leave Hong Kong for Macau. As the incident began to cool down, Lau Chung relocated to Canton. While believing he was safe, Lau Chung was unexpectedly assassinated by a fellow Choy Lay Fut practitioner hired by those associated with Norris in Hong Kong."

[Ray Pina]

I stand corrected on San Shou.



As for the WORLD CLF championships.... that posters says more than you can apparently tell. Perhaps the winner will claim being a world champion and sell tons of videos.

Also a bit of a stretch going from a death match to two guys getting into a fight and one getting a broken rib. But I concede someone, sometime in China probably died while fighting.

It's happened. You won..... I admit. Kung Fu is awesome and probably the best way to spend your time and money to develop fighting skill. You all are probably very dangerous individuals and the real international professional fighting world is very lucky that you all sit it out on the sidelines.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

Ray, San shou is a perfectly valid full contact fighting venue, more so than KB since it does allow for throws and such.
CLF people competing in San Shou, where ANYONE can compete, is much like any other fighter competing in a full contact striking format.

[hskwarrior]

Also a bit of a stretch going from a death match to two guys getting into a fight and one getting a broken rib. But I concede someone, sometime in China probably died while fighting.

This is why no one likes dealing you dude. LMAO. you see what you want to see. And ignore the rest. I never claimed what i posted were DEATH MATCHES....thats your insecurity talking. you said CLF people don't fight....i showed you even back then we were kicking ass.

you're hella funny, people post something and instead of saying "oh, cool...." you start thumping your chest. HAHA.....

[goju]

Ray, San shou is a perfectly valid full contact fighting venue, more so than KB since it does allow for throws and such.
CLF people competing in San Shou, where ANYONE can compete, is much like any other fighter competing in a full contact striking format.

God im a karate guy and i know this LOL seriously ray wth?

[hskwarrior]

God im a karate guy and i know this LOL seriously ray wth?

He is STUCK in a certain mode and can't get out of it hahaah. maybe he suffers from some COMPETITIVE & REPETITIVE syndrome?

I'm not mad at him. haha.... its fun to see him raise his head when you mention any type of fighting....

[CLFNole]

Last I checked the orignial poster just wanted opinions on which school to attend.

[hskwarrior]

Here is some other older Choy Lee Fut fights.....

At 2:30 The blond Mexican guy was a boxer and trained under a big name trainer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJVBnV6eGiw&feature=fvsr

[RWilson]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

I agree with most of your posts, Ray but I must diSagree this time.

It is all about the rules of a competition that you tailor your training to.

San shou allows for stand up striking and throws. This is most of the skills minus bjj ground fighting. An "all round" fighter should do well here too if he trains it all. BJJ people do not like San shou because it does not allow them to just fall on each other and just do bjj the whole match. IMO you need mote stand up skills(wrestling/striking) in San shou. BJJ people do not want to bother and just want to ground fight.


Dave Ross was the San shou king in his day so we should await his oPinion. He had the fastest knockdown in San shou history...accept he was the guy who got knocked down.

[Ray Pina]

This is why no one likes dealing you dude. LMAO. you see what you want to see. And ignore the rest. I never claimed what i posted were DEATH MATCHES.

................

many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with most of your posts, Ray but I must diSagree this time.

It is all about the rules of a competition that you tailor your training to.

San shou allows for stand up striking and throws. This is most of the skills minus bjj ground fighting. An "all round" fighter should do well here too if he trains it all. BJJ people do not like San shou because it does not allow them to just fall on each other and just do bjj the whole match. IMO you need mote stand up skills(wrestling/striking) in San shou. BJJ people do not want to bother and just want to ground fight.


Dave Ross was the San shou king in his day so we should await his oPinion. He had the fastest knockdown in San shou history...accept he was the guy who got knocked down.

I respect San Shou completely. I've fought in it. And against a Thai Boxer... so I know it attracts non TCMAers.

My point is that its a huge leap from doing a CLF form, and even doing element strikes on a noodle, to fighting San Shou. Ross is a great example.

His fighters aren't training with the Lama Pi spiked wrists guards you see in his old pictures. They're not juggling a pitch fork in a form as Ross did.... they're training Judo throws, BJJ/wrestling grappling and Thai Boxing.

[hskwarrior]

................

EXACTLY my point. LOL.....

"i'm a martial GOD" gets the same "..............................."

My point is that its a huge leap from doing a CLF form, and even doing element strikes on a noodle, to fighting San Shou. Ross is a great example.

And Choy Lee Fut will never STOP doing forms either. get over it.

[wenshu]

It wouldn't be an official KFM forum thread without devolving into an inveterate display of black and white thinking.

Frenchie;

I'm assuming you have little or no prior experience but since you've narrowed it down and don't seem particularly attached to one school stylistically speaking; if at all possible try and get some experience in with both schools and give it some time. You will naturally gravitate towards one. I wouldn't try and rush a decision since if you develop a particular dedication it will consume all your free time. There can also be a lot of cultural addenda (baggage) so it could be a good idea to get a taste for what each has to offer before you start truncating your social life.

Gong, ma, pu, xu, xie, shou, yan, shen fa, bu.

Assuming the school is any good one of the nice things about gong fu is that at its most basic everything is relatively interchangeable. Good fundamentals in one style translate into good fundamentals in another relatively easily. So if you decide to try out some Shuai Jiao after a year or two the transition will be smooth and you'll have something of an advantage over a rank beginner as far as ji ben gong is concerned.

If they don't offer any sort of free sparring for whatever reason, after you've built some decent work capacity and have a good grasp of a few core basics some supplemental training once a week in boxing or muay thai etc is a good way to add some seasoning.

(edit: sorry, I didn't see your post about your previous experience.)

WHo am I kidding; all gong fu = wing chun and it sucks and I am the firstest mostest beautifullest person to point this out when I am not too busy winning gold medals wrestling great white sharks.

[Jimbo]

These comments were made:








... after someone asked for a comparison and the evidence to support such statements was a form video.

If someone asked me if I thought they should train MMA or TCMA. And since this is a forum and we can only use words or better yet, video, to prove arguments, I would post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomhzXJ1Xvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI





So if someone calls into question the way the majority of TCMA is being trained people get discouraged and want to quit?

I would say those people aren't really interested in learning martial arts.

I want my weaknesses highlighted so I can improve them. I want that because I want to be the best martial artist I can be. More so than clinging to any idea or tradition. The tradition of martial arts is to be the best you can be. Also one of self enlightenment, which can't begin until one is truthful with themself.



Very true.

But the minute one asks for a comparison, then weights and measures are required. And martial arts in general is an issue of comparison which goes back to my major overall point: martial arts are about combat effectiveness. If form plays a role in this is up to each individual's preference. But results, again, can me measured. TCMA's results are not good.

Be discouraged. Attack me personally. Continue down the same path.... again, that's for the individual to decide. Its your martial art. You determine if its coal or a diamond.... which is ironic, because that's a matter of pressure. Which you don't get from form and non resistance training.

Ray, you do make some valid points. But I don't see anywhere in my post where I attacked you personally. In fact, I don't make personal attacks on these forums at all. That's not my thing. But if I did so, I would be very clear about it. I said that there are people who insert what amounts to put-downs whenever any type of question, etc., is posted. And yes, that could include some of your comments on CMA, i.e., CMA only fights in Tru2form or whatever that was. I kept it open because there are others who do the same or far worse. And yes, some people can be discouraged if it's a perspective beginner posting a question about a particular art(s) and all he/she gets is negative feedback.

I do believe it would be boring as hell if everyone always agreed all the time. But put-down-type comments are also boring. Everyone should express their opinions. Sometimes it's the WAY they're expressed that makes them constructive or not.