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Thread: Wing Chun Fighting - No Bridge No sensitivity!

  1. #1
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    Wing Chun Fighting - No Bridge No sensitivity!

    Wing Chun is About Controlling the Bridge why when i see people spar with wing chun they look just like kick boxers. With no Bridge, No bong sau, No Tan Sau, No Pak Sau. Not even one technique from chi sau or mook yan jong is used!



    Since Wing Chun is about controlling the bridge.

    Why do people who spar with wing chun don't use the bridge nor do they follow the concepts of wing chun by intercepting attacks and redirecting them.



    For instance

    -Chi Sau teaches you how to feel your opponents bridge for changes so you can intercept or block his attacks. It also teaches you how redirect his force and or control or nullify his bridge

    -The wooden man teaches you how to kick and bridge and strike and bridge while using your footwork to either generate power or flank your opponent to strike from a safer posistion.

    -San Shou or two man drills teaches you how defend and attack simultaneously either offensively and defensively. Such is pak da, tan da, bil da, jut da and partner punching.


    -Chi Gerk Teaches you how to kick when you have contact with your opponent while using your senstivity to feel for his changes


    CHECK THIS VIDEO CLIP OUT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krg4k8uB4E8

    I love the aggression, There are some techniques like the neck grab but they are using it in more of Muay Thai fashion. I do not see the skills taught in the Mook Yan Jong, Chi Sau, Chi Gerk or two man drills. Why when I see Wing Chun Sparring its mostly out side fighting and not inside or inclose fighting like the art was design for?

    Its very hard to transition from training drills to actual san da with wing chun if you never practice sparring trying to apply the basic techniques.

    Why don't WC schools have sparring which forces the student to utilize Wing Chun techniques?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Wing Chun is About Controlling the Bridge why when i see people spar with wing chun they look just like kick boxers. With no Bridge, No bong sau, No Tan Sau, No Pak Sau. Not even one technique from chi sau or mook yan jong is used!



    Since Wing Chun is about controlling the bridge.

    Why do people who spar with wing chun don't use the bridge nor do they follow the concepts of wing chun by intercepting attacks and redirecting them.



    For instance

    -Chi Sau teaches you how to feel your opponents bridge for changes so you can intercept or block his attacks. It also teaches you how redirect his force and or control or nullify his bridge

    -The wooden man teaches you how to kick and bridge and strike and bridge while using your footwork to either generate power or flank your opponent to strike from a safer posistion.

    -San Shou or two man drills teaches you how defend and attack simultaneously either offensively and defensively. Such is pak da, tan da, bil da, jut da and partner punching.


    -Chi Gerk Teaches you how to kick when you have contact with your opponent while using your senstivity to feel for his changes


    CHECK THIS VIDEO CLIP OUT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krg4k8uB4E8

    I love the aggression, There are some techniques like the neck grab but they are using it in more of Muay Thai fashion. I do not see the skills taught in the Mook Yan Jong, Chi Sau, Chi Gerk or two man drills. Why when I see Wing Chun Sparring its mostly out side fighting and not inside or inclose fighting like the art was design for?

    Its very hard to transition from training drills to actual san da with wing chun if you never practice sparring trying to apply the basic techniques.

    Why don't WC schools have sparring which forces the student to utilize Wing Chun techniques?
    We dont do chi sao to control or feel, why vt done with feeling and wrong ideas turns into kickboxing.

  3. #3
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    If you just want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you are by passing the "bridge building". You may hit your opponent or you may miss your punch. Even if you may hit your opponent, since your opponent is a moving object, his backward footwork may cancel out most of your force. If you always want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you will always fight like a kickboxer.

    You will need some set up to build a bridge. After you make a contact, you can then pull youself into your opponent and create a "head on collusion". It's usually 2 steps or even 3 steps process. The nice thing about this approach is your bridge can restrict your opponent from moving back. That will make your punch much more powerful.

    The following clip is from the mantis system. But the bridging concept is the same.

    - contact (Tang Shou),
    - pull (Pai Shou or Fu Shou),
    - punch.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_MHB7Ox1Sc

    The problem is when you have 16 oz boxing gloves on, it will be difficult for you to build bridge like this, you will then fight like a kickboxer.

    When you remove a tiger's teeth and claw, that tiger will fight like a bull.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-08-2011 at 01:26 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    We dont do chi sao to control or feel, why vt done with feeling and wrong ideas turns into kickboxing.
    Why do you do chi sau?

    So you dont do chi sau to feel or develop your sensitivity?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  5. #5
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    Chi sao, etc should only help you strike better. Why bong sao when you can hit the guy? Idnyoure looking to use all those controling techniques you're already in trouble. Hitting is bridging and is priority 1. Rest is just to help train your body to do that.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Why do you do chi sau?

    So you dont do chi sau to feel or develop your sensitivity?
    Chi sao is a simple 2 man drill. It is too often played as a game and eventually people expect that it does more than it really does. When you hear about full contact Wing Chun fights it is really a chi sao match. It is only possible to do it with another Wing Chun man that is of equal skill to you. If you were to match up on the street with the average person you would not chi sao with him. He would not know how in the first place. So your chi sao skills would be useless.
    Wing chun is not an attack system as such, but it can be if done correctly. You let your opponent attack you, then you take the bridge and control him as you strike or kick. In order to attack him you faint an attack and when he tries to defend you then take control and counter attack him. Never attack a fortified position, which is what you have when you attack the other person. You force him to do that. If he refuses, then you don't have to fight.
    Last edited by Lee Chiang Po; 10-08-2011 at 06:38 PM.
    Jackie Lee

  7. #7
    It depends on the level of user, most wing chin and most arts are only low level students and have to rely on speed and power to deal with there opponent and do not have the skill level to use the bridge to their advantage.

    Learning defense skill takes 5 to 10 times longer to develop than a offense skill, most sparring is just 2 offense guys trying to get there first.

    Plus most styles have lost the defensive skills by dilution over the years and only have the offense left to teach, its sad but that what happens to most things that expand to quickly for different reasons, mostly greed of financial gains.

    Most school are set up for financial gains and ego boosting reasons and are usually low level schools teaching only physical skills.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    Learning defense skill takes 5 to 10 times longer to develop than a offense skill, most sparring is just 2 offense guys trying to get there first.
    If you wait for your opponent to attack you so you can play defense and counter, you may be forced to play your opponent's game. If you attack, you can force your opponent to play your game instead of his. IMO, it's always better to force your opponent to play your favor game (whatever that may be).

    When your opponent's fist is right infront of your face, your opponent has brought the fight into your territory. When your fist is infront of your opponent's face, you have brought the fight into your opponent's territiory. If you fight there then you don't have to fight here. Have we seen a lot of that going on in today's warfare?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-09-2011 at 12:24 PM.

  9. #9
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    My goal is to hit some one when I'm sparring or fighting. If end up using more Wing Chun-like techniques, it's because I was in the right position to get it.

    You can't think of fighting like applications practice, it's not, those are drills that have to transfer. However, you can't expect a 100% transfer, it doesn't work like that.

    It works similar to the strength and conditioning world: when training athletes to be stronger, faster, and more powerful in their sport; but no one is expecting a complete transfer no matter how sport-specific it gets. You can only move in that direction.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fa Xing View Post
    My goal is to hit some one when I'm sparring or fighting.
    After you have knocked down your opponent under your feet, you can post:

    - Er Zi Qian Yang Ma on his dead body to prove that you are a WC master.
    - White crane flap wings on his dead body to prove that you are a Taiji master.
    - Santi stance on his dead body to prove that you are a XingYi master.
    - Circle walking around his dead body to prove that you are a Bagua master.

    A: What's your style?
    B: I'll show you what my style is after I have beaten the sh!t out of you.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-09-2011 at 12:37 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    After you have knocked down your opponent under your feet, you can post:

    - Er Zi Qian Yang Ma on his dead body to prove that you are a WC master.
    - White crane flap wings on his dead body to prove that you are a Taiji master.
    - Santi stance on his dead body to prove that you are a XingYi master.
    - Circle walking around his dead body to prove that you are a Bagua master.

    A: What's your style?
    B: I'll show you what my style is after I have beaten the sh!t out of you.
    This made me smile.

  12. #12
    Chi sao is a simple 2 man drill. It is too often played as a game and eventually people expect that it does more than it really does.
    That is true in many WC schools.

    When you hear about full contact Wing Chun fights it is really a chi sao match.
    You mean it is NOT a chi sau match!

    It is only possible to do it with another Wing Chun man that is of equal skill to you.
    Chi Sau can be unproductive even if it is WC training with WC because we don't all share the same idea as to what this drill improves. I cannot practice chi sau with people outside of my lineage. Only sparring. The shapes, structures and forces exchanged vary massively in most cases.

    If you were to match up on the street with the average person you would not chi sao with him. He would not know how in the first place. So your chi sao skills would be useless.
    I agree to a certain extent but if you think that your chi skills will be useless then why even practice. Chi Sau is a vital component and a pre-cursor to sparring.

    Wing chun is not an attack system as such, but it can be if done correctly.
    Mine Ving Tsun is.

    You let your opponent attack you, then you take the bridge and control him as you strike or kick.
    That idea is not a good way of thinking for fighting.......IMO

    In order to attack him you faint an attack and when he tries to defend you then take control and counter attack him.
    I kind of agree with that but I'm hoping you mean take control of the situation (or try) and not take control of arms.

    Never attack a fortified position, which is what you have when you attack the other person. You force him to do that. If he refuses, then you don't have to fight.
    The best time to attack is before you get attacked. Unfortuneately that isnt always possible and how you react depends on many factors. I don't think is something that should be over analysed on a forum.

    G

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If you just want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you are by passing the "bridge building". You may hit your opponent or you may miss your punch. Even if you may hit your opponent, since your opponent is a moving object, his backward footwork may cancel out most of your force. If you always want to hit your opponent by your 1st punch, you will always fight like a kickboxer.
    This is a common misperception I see with people who start in chi sau range and with bridge contact as a starting point all the time. The main WCK idea is to dominate the centerline with forward intent and strikes. IF there is a bridge, you sink it (chum kiu). If not, pursue and destroy. You don't wait to build bridge contact first. That's putting you on defense automatically.

    The problem is when you have 16 oz boxing gloves on, it will be difficult for you to build bridge like this, you will then fight like a kickboxer.

    When you remove a tiger's teeth and claw, that tiger will fight like a bull.
    The purpose of 16 oz gloves is to protect the hands and targets while sparring at more full contact. There SHOULD NOT be a significant difference to your WCK - it should adapt to any of those environments. If it doesn't, then you can either resort to a lot of tiger analogies and be left with a lot of bull, or you can genuinely build your skill level so it scales properly.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If you wait for your opponent to attack you so you can play defense and counter, you may be forced to play your opponent's game. If you attack, you can force your opponent to play your game instead of his. IMO, it's always better to force your opponent to play your favor game (whatever that may be).

    When your opponent's fist is right infront of your face, your opponent has brought the fight into your territory. When your fist is infront of your opponent's face, you have brought the fight into your opponent's territiory. If you fight there then you don't have to fight here. Have we seen a lot of that going on in today's warfare?
    That works if you are better than your opponent, but if he is equal or better, you can be in trouble, if you are at a high skill level.

    Once you commit movement that movement can be used against you, but for people with only offensive skill there is not much to worry about.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    That is true in many WC schools.



    You mean it is NOT a chi sau match!



    Chi Sau can be unproductive even if it is WC training with WC because we don't all share the same idea as to what this drill improves. I cannot practice chi sau with people outside of my lineage. Only sparring. The shapes, structures and forces exchanged vary massively in most cases.

    You can't practice chi sao outside Wing Chun either. In my life I have been involved in probably around 200 fights. Not one time did I come up on a Wing Chun fighter. Some had a bit of karate, some judo, some wrestling, lots of boxing, and just wind mill swingers, but no WC fighters. Not even a short time Wing chun man. It develops your skills of applying tan, pac, bong, fook, and whatever, but it does not develop the so called sensitivity people speak of. It might apply if everyone was a wing chun fighter, but they aren't.

    I agree to a certain extent but if you think that your chi skills will be useless then why even practice. Chi Sau is a vital component and a pre-cursor to sparring.

    I don't. When I was real young and training I did chi sao, but I was told early on not to let it take over what I do. That it would indeed become a game and cripple my ability to fight.



    I kind of agree with that but I'm hoping you mean take control of the situation (or try) and not take control of arms.

    The arms are what have the fists on the end of them. They hit you with them. You have to control the arms, elbows or whatever so that they can not hit you. You also have to worry about the feet, but most people can not kick when you get in under them. They require room to do that and some can not even hit you if you are in close to them. I have been very successful in controling a person by taking control of the arms.

    The best time to attack is before you get attacked. Unfortuneately that isnt always possible and how you react depends on many factors. I don't think is something that should be over analysed on a forum.

    G
    I have actually walked up to people with no warning and put them down and out. It works better then announcing your intentions. The guy might just make it a little more difficult if you do that. But if a person squares off he is aware of your intentions most likely, and getting in past his defense might be a bit dangerous. A lucky punch can put you flat of your back. I prefer to let him try to breach my defense instead. I might not be able to take control of him, but I will keep working until I do. If I initiate the first blow it is usually with his full expectance, and he will usually do something very predictable by trying to block it, giving you his arm so that you can then start jerking him around by it. The only way I know of controling a mans striking ability is to control his arms. If he is doing chi sao stuff it would be simple, but he will likely just jump back and start dancing and come in windmilling, or even trying to do his best Mike Tyson immitation.
    Jackie Lee

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