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Thread: Meihua Lu

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis View Post
    I thought you had Zhang Bingdou's book. I don't know where it is available, maybe on some book site. I noticed it has once again been reissued last time I was in CHina. I didn't buy it though.
    Nope, don't have it yet. But I did find where I could order it and should receive it Monday if not before.
    Thank you for pointing me to it!

    After I translate the quan pu of Meihua Lu, I will post it for all to see.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 10-14-2011 at 09:18 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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  2. #17
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    Here is Zhang Bingdou's (TJMH TLQ) quan pu for the first road of Meihua Lu:

    螳 螂 雙 封 下
    táng láng shuāng fēng xià
    Praying Mantis Double Seals Descend

    左 封 右 臂 肘
    zuǒ fēng yòu bì zhǒu
    Left Seal, Right Forearm Elbow

    纏 龍 護 眼 打
    chán lóng hù yǎn dǎ
    Coiling Dragon, Eye Protecting Strike

    左 擒 右 蹬 踏
    zuǒ qín yòu dèng tà
    Left Capture, Right Trample Step

    霸 王 去 摘 盔
    bà wáng qù zhāi kuī
    Overlord Takes the Helmet

    擒 髮 挫 嘴 巴
    qín fà cuò zuǐ bā
    Capture Hair & Break Mouth

    雙 叫 雙 幫 肘
    shuāng jiào shuāng bāng zhǒu
    Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow

    左 封 右 崩 點
    zuǒ fēng yòu bēng diǎn
    Left Seal, Right Crashing Strike

    偷 展 磨 盤 打中 堂
    tōu zhǎn mó pán dǎ zhōng táng
    Steal Open, Millstone Strike to Middle Hall

    鳳 凰 三 點 頭
    fèng huáng sān dian tóu
    Phoenix Thrice Nods It's Head

    臨 行 鴛 鴦 腳
    lín xíng yuān yang jiǎo
    Moving Mandarin Duck Leg
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 10-17-2011 at 02:48 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  3. #18
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    雙 叫 雙 幫 肘
    shuāng jiào shuāng bāng zhǒu
    Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow

    What you put for 'bang' is ' augmented'
    THat is a tough one to translate. Old manuals use a different character.
    7* in HK uses the character that means 'to help' which makes sense.
    But I have heard also that it is from a verb to do a job such as rowing a boat or pulling a bucket out of a well.

    I would like to see more work done on this characer, I think it relies on some shandong dialect and won't be found in standard dictionaries..

    As for your choice of invitation, why that and not provoke?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis View Post
    雙 叫 雙 幫 肘
    shuāng jiào shuāng bāng zhǒu
    Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow

    What you put for 'bang' is ' augmented'
    THat is a tough one to translate. Old manuals use a different character.
    7* in HK uses the character that means 'to help' which makes sense.
    But I have heard also that it is from a verb to do a job such as rowing a boat or pulling a bucket out of a well.

    I would like to see more work done on this characer, I think it relies on some shandong dialect and won't be found in standard dictionaries..

    As for your choice of invitation, why that and not provoke?


    Kevin,
    Respectfully, I don't think it is that tough to interpret.

    Yes, I have seen this word translated as "help" (as in "helping elbow"). However, I do not think it clarifies what the technique entails.

    IMO the structure of the technique reveals the proper interpretation of the word.

    The forward arm is helped, reenforced, or augmented by the pressure that is exerted upon it by the rear hand. Alone, the forward arm is weak. But with the pressure of the rear hand pressing against the forward arm near the wrist, the structure is much stronger.

    The word augment means "to make something greater by adding to it". Thus, I believe augment is a more precise term than help when the structure of the technique is considered.

    To help others who may not be familiar with the technique that we are talking about, I will offer this picture: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater



    Quote Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis View Post
    雙 叫 雙 幫 肘
    shuāng jiào shuāng bāng zhǒu
    Double Invitation, Double Augmented Elbow

    As for your choice of invitation, why that and not provoke?
    In the HK Seven Star version of this set, the augmented elbow is preceded by the arm motion known as "offer the peach" (献 桃 - xiàn táo). As explained by my Sifu, the action deflects the attacker's forward moving arms upward and forward to off-balance him and set him up for the augmented elbow strike.

    I saw this as similar to the philosophy behind the 白 猿 請 客 “White Ape Invites Guest” (bái yuán qǐng kè) technique. While 白 猿 請 客 exerts pressure forward and downward, and 献 桃 exerts pressure forward and upward, both share the same strategy: to off-balance the opponent and set them up for the strike.

    I also was unaware of the definition "provoke" for 叫 (jiào). So, perhaps I am completely lost in a wilderness of words on 叫.

    Can you shed light on how "provoke" come into play in this technique?

    The translation I felt was the most questionable was:

    纏 龍 護 眼 打
    chán lóng hù yǎn dǎ
    Coiling Dragon Guard Eye Strike

    I understand the technique, but the quanpu is quite muddy to me. Any thoughts?

    As always, thank you for your insights!
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 10-17-2011 at 11:07 AM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    The translation I felt was the most questionable was:

    纏 龍 護 眼 打
    chán lóng hù yǎn dǎ
    Coiling Dragon Guard Eye Strike

    I understand the technique, but the quanpu is quite muddy to me. Any thoughts?

    As always, thank you for your insights!
    A coiling or wrapping dragon can often be seen in temples around the beams and pillars. Mantis already has the custom of calling the arm a pillar as do other martial art styles.
    So, for a dragon to coil about a pillar is like my hand wrapping around your hand as I deliver eye protecting strike.

    Dragons on pillars and roof beams

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis View Post
    A coiling or wrapping dragon can often be seen in temples around the beams and pillars. Mantis already has the custom of calling the arm a pillar as do other martial art styles.
    So, for a dragon to coil about a pillar is like my hand wrapping around your hand as I deliver eye protecting strike.

    Dragons on pillars and roof beams
    Oh ok! Thank you for clearing that up!!
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  7. #22
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    Second Road

    Since I had the day off work today I had a little time to translate the quanpu for the second road of Meihua Lu. Enjoy!

    Second Road

    转 身 回 马 鞭
    zhuǎn shēn huí mǎ biān
    Turn Body, Revolve Horse Whip

    右 采 迎 面 圈
    yòu cǎi yíng miàn quān
    Right Pluck, Meet Face Circle

    隔 肘 伏 地 下
    gé zhǒu fú dì xià
    Separate Elbow, Conceal Underneath

    胁 捶 反 仰 掌
    xié chuí fǎn yǎng zhǎng
    Threatening Strike, Reverse Upward Facing Palm

    偷 展 打 中 堂
    tōu zhǎn dǎ zhōng táng
    Steal Open, Strike Center Hall

    刁 采 回 马 鞭
    diāo cǎi huí mǎ biān
    Deceptive Pluck, Revolve Horse Whip

    擒 拿 护 眼 斩 腰
    qín ná hù yǎn zhǎn yāo
    Capture & Hold, Eye Protecting, Chop Waist

    缠 龙 锁 口 撩 阴 脚
    chán lóng suǒ kǒu liāo yīn jiǎo
    Coiling Dragon Mouth Lock, Lifting Yin Leg

    劈 开 中 门 压 当顶
    pī kāi zhōng mén yā dāng dǐng
    Split Open Center Gate, Push Down on Top

    双 封 閉 門 脚
    shuāng fēng bì mén jiǎo
    Double Seal, Close Door Leg

    右 采 胁 捶 迎
    yòu cǎi xié chuí yíng
    Right Pluck, Threatening Strike
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 11-15-2011 at 10:37 AM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  8. #23
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    Does anyone of the Hong Kong lineage know why the name of this form was changed from 梅 花 路 - Méi Huā Lù or "Plum Flower Road" to 梅 花 落 - Méi Huā Luò or "Plum Flower Falling"?

    I see that on Lee Kam Wing's website he uses the Chinese characters 梅 花 路. I also spoke with a Qixing Tanglangquan member, not of the Wong Hon Fan line, and he said they also used the Chinese characters 梅 花 路.

    So, perhaps it was Wong Hon Fan that changed the name of the form to 梅 花 落 ?

    Does anyone know when the form was adopted into the Qixing Tanglangquan family, and by whom?
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 12-02-2011 at 02:08 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  9. #24
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    Translation Help

    I am currently translating the quan pu for the third road of Meihua Lu from Zhang Bingdou and Li Zheng Tang's books.

    For movements twenty-eight and twenty-nine I have:

    白 鹤 亮 翅 两 边 打
    bái hè liàng chì liang biān da
    White Crane Reveals Wings to Both Sides Strike

    粘 手 入 手 擒 身 旁
    nián shǒu rù shǒu qín shēn páng
    Sticky Hand, Entering Hand & Capture Body to the Side

    Does anyone have a more palatable translation?

    Note: Yes, I understand the applications. I just feel my translation isn't flowery enough.

    Since movement twenty-nine is ends in a hair grab and pull, is "pull body to the side" a more accurate rendition of the move?

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 02-20-2012 at 05:05 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  10. #25
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    I think the word falling describes the actions of the form better.

    Paul
    www.moifa.co.uk

  11. #26
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    Richard, you don't have to translate so literally. Since Chinese has a different grammar to English a literal translation can sometimes sound clunky. On the flipside sometimes they come out like a fortune-cookie pearl of wisdom. It all depends on the particular phrase.

    A slight tweak of your excellent translation for your consideration:

    白 鹤 亮 翅 两 边 打
    White Crane Reveals Wings to Strike Both Sides

    粘 手 入 手 擒 身 旁
    Sticking Hand, Entering Hand, Captures the Side Body

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    Richard, you don't have to translate so literally. Since Chinese has a different grammar to English a literal translation can sometimes sound clunky. On the flipside sometimes they come out like a fortune-cookie pearl of wisdom. It all depends on the particular phrase.

    A slight tweak of your excellent translation for your consideration:

    白 鹤 亮 翅 两 边 打
    White Crane Reveals Wings to Strike Both Sides

    粘 手 入 手 擒 身 旁
    Sticking Hand, Entering Hand, Captures the Side Body
    CFT,
    Thank you for your help!

    White Crane Reveals Wings to Strike Both Sides definitely sounds much better.

    Captures the Side Body I am not sure about.

    The action is a right hook hand that sticks and deflects an oncoming punch. This is followed by a left inner seal (grab) to the opponent's elbow area of the same arm. Finally the right hand reaches forward to grab the opponent's hair. The stance is then lowered and the opponent is pulled to the ground at the mantid's right side by means of the opponent's hair.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  13. #28
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    Third Road Translation

    Here is my translation of the quanpu for the third road:

    孤 雁 出 群 去 点 睛
    gū yàn chū qún qù dian jīng
    Lone Goose Exits Flock, Leave and Dot Eye

    提 膝 隔 肘 往 下 打
    tí xī gé zhǒu wǎng xià dǎ
    Lift Knee, Separate Elbow Toward Lower Strike

    起 身 护 眼 下 扫 裆
    qǐ shēn hù yǎn xià sǎo dāng
    Raise Body, Protect Eye & Lower Sweep the Crotch

    偷 展 磨 盤 打中 堂
    tōu zhǎn mó pán dǎ zhōng táng
    Steal Open, Millstone Strike to Middle Hall

    白 鹤 亮 翅 两 边 打
    bái hè liàng chì liang biān da
    White Crane Reveals Wings to Strike Both Sides

    粘 手 入 手 擒 身 旁
    nián shǒu rù shǒu qín shēn páng
    Sticky Hand, Entering Hand & Pull Body to the Side

    缠 鞭 过 耳 鴛 鴦 脚
    chán biān guò ěr yuān yang jiǎo
    Swing Whip Through the Ear, Mandarin Duck Leg

    进 步 雙 帮
    jìn bù shuāng bāng
    Advance Step, Double Augmented Elbow

    As always, please feel free to suggest changes.
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 02-21-2012 at 08:38 PM.
    Richard A. Tolson
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    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    CFT,
    Thank you for your help!

    White Crane Reveals Wings to Strike Both Sides definitely sounds much better.

    Captures the Side Body I am not sure about.

    The action is a right hook hand that sticks and deflects an oncoming punch. This is followed by a left inner seal (grab) to the opponent's elbow area of the same arm. Finally the right hand reaches forward to grab the opponent's hair. The stance is then lowered and the opponent is pulled to the ground at the mantid's right side by means of the opponent's hair.
    Of course you must balance the literal translation (kam --> capture) with the meaning. Sometimes this is not possible. Sounds like inner seal + hair pull = capture. You must choose what is most useful to you and your students.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    孤 雁 出 群 去 点 睛
    gū yàn chū qún qù dian jīng
    Lone Goose Exits Flock, Leave and Dot Eye
    Lone Goose leaves the Flock to Peck the Eye

    提 膝 隔 肘 往 下 打
    tí xī gé zhǒu wǎng xià dǎ
    Lift Knee, Separate Elbow Toward Lower Strike
    Lift Knee, Separate Elbow, Strike Downward


    缠 鞭 过 耳 鴛 鴦 脚
    chán biān guò ěr yuān yang jiǎo
    Swing Whip Through the Ear, Mandarin Duck Leg
    Coiling Whip Passes Ear, Mandarin Duck kicks

    进 步 雙 帮
    jìn bù shuāng bāng
    Advance Step, Double Augmented Elbow
    Advancing Step, Double Assisting Elbow

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