wing chun stance and it's grappling weakness

[couch]

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Typical broken telephones on this forum. I for one never said that you stand petrified in a stance.
Both proper structure and proper motion are relevant in good Ip Man wing chun.

And(couch) if you are on the ball of your feet- you could be easily unbalanced by a grappler of any competence.

Enough for me. Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

I guess that's why so many boxers, wrestlers and MMA fighters are on their heels all the time. Must make it easier to sprawl then. (TIC)

[Lindley]

Kevin's explanation should be acknowledged and understood. As are many comments here that try to express how an "outsider" misunderstands the process of learning kung fu. The Ving Tsun system is a "collection of little ideas" and offers no absolute answer, just possibilities. Thus, this allows each practioner to develope their own method of expression. People who are martial arts hobbyists as opposed to those who live Kung Fu life often expect a martial art to have all the moves for all situations. No, this is just the movies not real life. This is why Ving Tsun is a complete system and that only those who pursue it to its master level could understand and enjoy its fruits.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr#p/u/87/cBPmlvAB8jA

[wiz cool c]

found that example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX...A072B53DD5D616

[Phil Redmond]

found that example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX...A072B53DD5D616

That's why in our WC we don't stand that way in fighting.

[stonecrusher69]

Hi everyone, first off i don't want to diss anyone's style, i am just bored to death in bed recovering from knee surgery. and this was on my mind. i was think in a worse case scenario, that my knee is not what it used to be and i had to find a style that was less stressful on the knees then the southern styles i have been doing lately.


I remember a long while back[i have been in the martial art game a long time] checking out wing chun from various sources, and one of the things that popped into mind was that upright narrow stance with hands up is screaming ,please double leg take down me to a wrestler.

Later after i had already made this observation,this actually happened in a ufc match, a canadian wrestler David Benito,did just that in a match against a wing chun guy. ended the fight quickly. recently i started reading an old book written by Bruce Francis a well know internal guy. and in this book was a chapter on wing chun,and he mentions ,in his study of wing chun he found such a weakness,and also witnessed time and time again in lei tai matches,wing chun guys get slammed hard.

by now i would guess every wing chunner would have realized this stance leaves one very open to single double leg takedowns. so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?

In Fut Sao Wing Chun we dont always fight with a high stance we also use a low horse with a low center of gravity. This is introduced in our chum kiu form.

[k gledhill]

found that example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX...A072B53DD5D616

Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT.

here watch this for speed and movement..and tell me the difference ...a waddling lead leg entry or something else....a little bit faster angling striking... moving....

Philipp Bayer discussing angling and counters to striking entry..none involve a lead leg waddle with hands forwards. I say again, he is showing 'options' not everything possible.


CLIP 1

Another clip of Philipp working out a student in Menden Germany. Notice that there is no lead leg waddle ...ever ~!

Clip 2

[Phil Redmond]

Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT.

here watch this for speed and movement..and tell me the difference ...a waddling lead leg entry or something else....a little bit faster angling striking... moving....

Philipp Bayer discussing angling and counters to striking entry..none involve a lead leg waddle with hands forwards. I say again, he is showing 'options' not everything possible.


CLIP 1

Another clip of Philipp working out a student in Menden Germany. Notice that there is no lead leg waddle ...ever ~!

Clip 2

Dang, he's got good lo yat bin san aka fighting on the blindside. Especially in the first clip. That's just what I do.

[anerlich]

I tip my hat to those perfecting their stance.

But if you don't want to get taken down, practice takedown defence instead or as well.

so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?

I couldn't give a rats' what the "wing chun community" does, assuming that such a thing exists, but I crosstrain with wrestling and Jiu Jitsu.

[k gledhill]

Dang, he's got good lo yat bin san aka fighting on the blindside. Especially in the first clip. That's just what I do.

He introduced me to this thinking....it makes it very clear why certain ideas of VT dont function and become glorified kick boxing.

[YouKnowWho]

why are you standing, when you should be fighting?

This is the key point. It's not how you stand. It's how fast that you can pull your leg back and ... Instead of looking at "stance", you should look at leg escape, footwork, body spin/sink, ...

[Frost]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1137288]Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT./QUOTE]

so any clips other than drills to show why this is bad and what you do is better...you know actual fights..............

[Yoshiyahu]

No Stance can prevent a take down.

I dont care if you practice Hung Gar or if you practice Crane ma.

No horse stance can prevent a take down...

Yee Kim Yeung Ma is double weighted. It is so for reason. I believe YGKYM is a fighting stance as well as training stance. But its not the first stance i would initiate with long range fighter. If i fight another inclose stand up fighter I might bridge with YGKYM. But most people take side riding horse stance.

I suggest starting off with forward advancing stance or moving horse. So you can move back and forth quickly as taking a front step or back step.

YGKYM allows you to rotate the core more effectively on both sides allowing you to generate equal force with both elbows if you are inclose quarters. But unless your toe to toe I wouldnt suggest standing in that stance for too long. Just long enough to get your issue off and adapt to situtation at hand. Same with Hanging horse. Its not static fighting posistion or ready stance. You might use it to advoid a leg sweep or deflect a kick. or even throw a knee. But you dont hold your knee in the air.


The key to advoiding a take down is either sprawl if their too close or dont stay in range where they can take you down but stay close enough to hit them!

This wont work on everyone it depends on how good they are. Just as the sprawl wont work on everyone!

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=Frost;1137306]

Thats not how we fight, Thats one guy and very bad VT./QUOTE]

so any clips other than drills to show why this is bad and what you do is better...you know actual fights..............

I saw a clip a while back on you tube with a WSL guy and an MMA champion doing shoot defense using side stance rather than a lead leg, I will try to find it.
The mma guy was showing attempted single leg take-downs where easy to a guy standing with a lead leg going back and forth in predictable lines of movement...no brainer, you could close your eyes and shoot and still know that a guy would be moving backwards....if you do bad VT you would be a sitting duck going back and forth in a leading leg face off.
This is why we start and use lateral shifting and cutting off the ring ideas as boxers. We can adopt lead legs with attacking entry as its available but if there is no availability then you create more options to random lines coming at you by moving laterally across the space in front of each of you fighting...maintaining a distance to work your goals and tactics....adopting a lead leg shuts this down straight away. If you dont understand then tactically your waking into two sharp pointy things waiting for you...

The mma guy in the clip was saying, agreeing, that by adopting a simple side facing stance , it takes the leading leg away [duh] and makes shooting in take a step further to reach the legs. This also brings you into fist/open palm striking aka gum sao to the head or head control, etc...or simple movement away from the line of force...movement... a guy steps towards me and I move either direction ...sideways and I can move sideways and back angling off the leading arm as it charges in, I know crazy talk just moving a little..... Then he refaces me and I do it again and again, its seen in the mma all the time , unpredictable movement to avoid takedowns, VT has no exclusivity to this and neither does MMA .

Movement can defeat any kick, any punch, any take down....from anybody. For how long ? who knows thats why they built a cage , you can run but you cant hide train harder

[Frost]

so no clips of actual fighting then............i mean you called that clip bad WC so you must have a clip of good WC for us to see, not demo's but actual fighting?