Joe Rogan

[Indrafist]

Frost UFC banned neck strikes lol Bak Meis first form has less than ten moves three are neck shots so really all I can do is use the footwork in the cage and that sucks because its all short range ging with arm grabs bil jee finger thrust to heart punch then finish with neck strikes and then repeat on the other side that is Jik Bo the main BM power drill. Hop ga techs are completly banned also the theory is u keep throwing cheap shots to diff spots like kick the groin run behind and punch the kidney and then hammer the spine all banned tactics but that is what the hop ga large stance is meant for..full power dirty strikes using angles to sneak in. So all I got left is karate from kajukenbo and thats been done so maybe they would let me use bak mei staff so I can rep CMA as a white man lol. If China was as open as Thailand maybe whites would be better at gung fu and use it like MT like no one knows shiao jiao in Canada of course its not represented in the UFC I only first heard about it like ten years ago .

There have been Hop Gar fighters testing in MMA, and they used the basic seed fists. You should know that Diego. Chris Hienztman and Varon Webb as examples. If TCMA wants to compete in that environment then they have to adjust and develop just as every other discipline has had to - or maybe not bother.

[TenTigers]

really thats not what most SJ guys say, one very famous SJ master carried a ring knife to deal with the ground and thats how a lot of his students say they would deal with a ground fighter stab them .....would like YKW's take on this since he knows a little about SJ

Nothing wrong with using a knife.
When I studied Kali (Sayoc) we did grappling with a knife.
I am not sure what you are saying, as I didn't see a post by YKW stating that SJ did not kick and punch, or that they didn't incorporate groundfighting.

[Hardwork108]

so did you find that video of TCMA grappling?

Yes. I posted it, but you are the one who did not see any grappling in that video.....LOL!

We've already discussed tiger boy and hair pulling so lets try and move on to actual grappling. I know it's hard to find those vids. keep trying i'm sure you'll come up with something you "think" is grappling.

You know very well that video was about a lot more than "hair pulling"! Anyway, here is some relevant Wing Chun practice. The lineage is different from that of mine which does train GROUND FIGHTING, but still it is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...grappling&aq=f

This one looks interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8xaBmql3k8

.


.

[Hardwork108]

Just out of interest, where did you find this information? Frost's profile lists 10 years of Southern arts training.. I know he studied with a famous sifu here in the UK for a long time before moving on to his present pursuits. What makes you able to judge his skill/knowledge/background?

FWIW

R

The world and this forum is full of MMA-ists who bash the TCMAs but who claim years or decades of TCMA experience. Unless his "Southern arts" are a reference to South London MA of headbutting old ladies at bus stops and robbing their hand bags - which I doubt...

PS. The world and this forum are also full of "famous" sifus, while at the same time the same world is full of Mcdojos!

[Dragonzbane76]

first vid. well more of a shortcut to multi. vids.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...grappling&aq=f

flipped though a couple of them and noted that the people they had portraying the "grappler" were people of the same class. Not grapplers themselves. the stuff they were showing is the typical "answer" most TCMA present when confronted with the shot or clinch. dropping weight, pushing forward into lunge stance and trying to drop either elbows or whatever. Had the "master" showing a modified sprawl type of move in the one vid which isn't a bad way of dealing with it but still not addressing the issue of MOMENTUM. None of the vids had any insight into that. If your going to demo a defense against the shot/clinch then you should do so in real time. Not in slow motion format.

here is some defense for the takedown in full motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSHGKQwICaE

second vid you posted.
some unorthodox things that wouldn't work against a skilled person. I would like to see that same demo in full motion with a resistant opponent that has some skill. the guy wasn't even in a guard postion, with his legs out loose, and letting the situation be dictated. which it was a demo i'll give it that. but fish hooking and pain application while on the ground is not a very favorable approach to controlling the opponent. I would also venture that if I looked into his background i would find he studied in a grappling art.

still waiting for that vid, your trying lets try and see if you can find one that is used against resistance. good luck.

[Hardwork108]

wait a minute a moment ago werent you arguing tcma master looked down on sports fighting and wont let their students take part...now you are pushing sanda as the be all and end all....

I never said that "TCMA look down on sports fighting"! The point I was making and trying to make for the past 6 or 7 years or so is that some traditional schools do not encourage their students to participate is sport fighting, but does not mean that their practionsers could not hand your asz to you if challenged!

Sanda is a fact of life. If you want to see kung fu in the SPORTS arena then I would encourage you to look into Sanda. You can even challenge some Chinese Sanda fighters if you like, or if you think that they are weak!

i would point out the double standards here,

The double standards you speak of, are a figment of your imagination just like the idea that TCMAs lack combat application and effectiveness!

not to mention the fact sanda and san shou is pretty much dead in the west

That fact may say much more about the West's understanding of Sanda, than the effectiveness of Sanda itself, which has been known to hand the asz's of MT and Kyokushinkai fighters back to them. Both sports as you will recall, "test" their skills in K1.....

and thai boxing, K1 and the UFC are where you should be going to test your skills,

See my above paragraph!

but im very tired after spending close to 7 hours this weekend with one of the most sort after wrestling coaches in MMA and I saw him demonstrate again and again those things you see as unique and special in your TCMA, short shocking power, sinking ability, the ability to listen with his whole body so on and so on and to be honest i cant be bothered so have fun in your training

LOL, it is not "shocking power", but Shock Power, in which the strikes penetrate to the internal organs. Are you saying that your wrestling has Southern Mantis style (NOT wing chun, etc,)shock power strikes? LOL!

[Hardwork108]

first vid. well more of a shortcut to multi. vids.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...grappling&aq=f

flipped though a couple of them and noted that the people they had portraying the "grappler" were people of the same class. Not grapplers themselves. the stuff they were showing is the typical "answer" most TCMA present when confronted with the shot or clinch. dropping weight, pushing forward into lunge stance and trying to drop either elbows or whatever. Had the "master" showing a modified sprawl type of move in the one vid which isn't a bad way of dealing with it but still not addressing the issue of MOMENTUM. None of the vids had any insight into that. If your going to demo a defense against the shot/clinch then you should do so in real time. Not in slow motion format.

here is some defense for the takedown in full motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSHGKQwICaE

second vid you posted.
some unorthodox things that wouldn't work against a skilled person. I would like to see that same demo in full motion with a resistant opponent that has some skill. the guy wasn't even in a guard postion, with his legs out loose, and letting the situation be dictated. which it was a demo i'll give it that. but fish hooking and pain application while on the ground is not a very favorable approach to controlling the opponent. I would also venture that if I looked into his background i would find he studied in a grappling art.

still waiting for that vid, your trying lets try and see if you can find one that is used against resistance. good luck.

I would say that perhaps you should enhance your TCMA understanding rather than just using you Wrestling ones to understand what a kung fu master is teaching.

The issue was wether ground fighting training existed in the TCMAs. The videos, my testitmony and that of sifu Mike Patterson, should have answered that question a long time ago.

[Dragonzbane76]

I would say that perhaps you should enhance your TCMA understanding rather than just using you Wrestling ones to understand what a kung fu master is teaching.

I tell it how i see it. I have nothing against TCMA, study in it and use many different aspects in my approaches to teaching. There are gaping holes in the rounded spectrum of it's structures. (some would disagree with me, that's fine) You don't agree with me fine. Not trying to change your mind. why i used the wrestling example is that they deal with takedown all the time, the whole system is based around defense against takedown. why not use something that deals specifically with a certain situation. They would know best. Sure everything can be modified to meet situations, wrestling has no strikes, therefore it needs modified when dealing with a broader spectrum. you don't see wrestlers that come into the full on areas of fighting bringing half a$$ striking defenses to the table, no they go were it is specified to learn.

The issue was wether ground fighting training existed in the TCMAs. The videos, my testitmony and that of sifu Mike Patterson, should have answered that question a long time ago.

didn't say it doesn't exist, only that it is a bland overview of something other systems specifically deal with. As for Mr. patterson I respect his views even though he has different approaches to things, but more over i repect that he went out and put his approaches to the test. I'm sure he's picked up things from others over the years, it's an ongoing process. He's learned in a resistant environment.

you call it cross training as if its a bad word, i call it learning to a fuller extent.

still waiting for that vid.

[Frost]

The world and this forum is full of MMA-ists who bash the TCMAs but who claim years or decades of TCMA experience. Unless his "Southern arts" are a reference to South London MA of headbutting old ladies at bus stops and robbing their hand bags - which I doubt...

PS. The world and this forum are also full of "famous" sifus, while at the same time the same world is full of Mcdojos!

lol true i dont claim to be good, but i do know i have been lucky with my coaches and sifu, I judge my TCMA sifu on what they could do to me, and the respect they got in the chinese and hakka community here in the UK, i have been lucky enough to train for years under a master, who regardless of what others said of him was always asked to demo and attend Hakka gatherings here in the UK, my other sifu who i spent no where near as much time with is a senior student of another well respected master

My MMA and grappling coach was the first UK coach to have guys fighting in pride and the UFC, and my powerlifting coach is a current world record holder, so when i judge the above i feel i have a good base to do so, but again there's no point to this so you enjoy your training

[diego]

amazing you cant use your hop gar in sparring but david rosses guys manage it............

OMG thats not what I said..without the cheap shots from my TMA all I have left is karate-kajukenbo my moves come from a 5th degree bb in kyokushin.buddy Lyoto Machida already repd that TMA in the cage. you have to kick and punch with 100 % to make it hop ga combos bak mei you hit more relaxed and a bit quicker in both its best to hit cheap spots so you may get the chance to keep going. Mma uses a more balanced sparring tempo prodding with jabs and leg kicks. hop ga footwork uses knives so the dance is more aggressive. Take out that GING and all my **** looks like D. Ross' kickpunching lol it comes from weapons its killing footwork not sparring.obviously one has to be good at sparn. Did your wrassln coach teach you weapons in your seven hour seminar?. If I was to fight for cash I think I would like to do philipino stickfighting, kendo full contact would be a proper blast too.

[Kevin73]

A couple of points here. In the US, UFC=MMA. In other places, like the UK, wrestling isn't always the main base art as it is for many people in the US. The mix of MMA's has alot more TMA's in it from speaking with a couple people involved in MMA in the UK.

Second, there is a difference between 'ground fighting' and grappling. The two are often used interchangeably by some people, but defined different by others. Rogan shows his ignorance when he talks about how the two "kung fu guys" went to the ground and the one guy started hammer fisting the other. Uhh? How is that not TMA and only has to be MMA? Hammerfists weren't even used in the early MMA days until Sakuraba brought them into the mix fom his traditional background and everyone started to use them. Up to that point, all you saw was guys throwing weak ass hook punches from boxing because they didn't have any other tools.

Third, every technique IN MMA comes from a TMA. PERIOD You will not find something that is used in the ring/cage that wasn't found in a TMA first. It all comes down to the training methods for that ruleset. Arguing about which is better is just stupid.

Fourth, Rogan shows his racist attitude because every "kung fu" guy he imitaded was done with a bad "black accent". What's up with that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem is that they would perhaps want to enlighten him in a sports arena, which is where his style is more effective.

If a system is not effective under limited rules, it won't be effective with NO rules.
To think otherwise is NOt logical, practical or demonstrative.


So...who then is going to take up the TCMA banner and enlighten Rogan and the un-educated MMA masses?
Anyone?

[Lucas]

No, Shuai Jiao works all ranges-kicks, punches, throws and contrary to popular belief, they do have ground grappling. In my brief experience, I would say that BJJ has developed and refined its teaching methods, but SJ has many of the same
chokes, armbars, shoulder locks (kimuura/americana)etc.
You just have to find the right teacher.

ok cool. I didn't know shuai jiao has ground fighting. So then shuai jiao and judo are pretty much the same. There are zero shuai jiao people here where I live

[Hardwork108]

I tell it how i see it.

To truly SEE something you (and other MMA-ists here) need to have genuine points of reference as regards the TCMAs - which you don't! That means you are not SEEING anything, even if you happen to be looking!

I have nothing against TCMA,

Again, to have something against the TCMAs, you will need to SEE them as they truly are, while understanding their true scope, which you don't!

study in it and use many different aspects in my approaches to teaching.

You teach TCMA "aspects"? LOL!

There are gaping holes in the rounded spectrum of it's structures.

How would you know? LOL!

(some would disagree with me, .......)

And they would be people who actually practice authentic TCMAs under genuine sifus?

Others who may disagree with you will be the actual kung fu sifus and masters who have dedicated their lives to TCMA practice, but what do they know, right? I mean it is not like they have blue belts in BJJ, right? LOL

You don't agree with me fine.

I do have an advantage over you in that I practice actual kung fu and I am more aware of its scope and the "rounded spectrum of its structures", while you don't!....

Not trying to change your mind.

Well, thank you for that. I mean that is all we the TCMA-ists need don't we, to come to KUNG FU forum and have MMA people trying to change our minds by telling us how the TCMAs are "ineffective".....LOL!

why i used the wrestling example is that they deal with takedown all the time, the whole system is based around defense against takedown. why not use something that deals specifically with a certain situation. They would know best.

The answer is simple. First of all, major kung fu styles - if taught/practiced correctly - deal with the takedown scenario in their own ways, which are many times not understood by non-TCMA practitioners such as yourself.

Secondly, there is no immediate need to cross train, if you are practicing a complete TCMA style in a CORRECT manner.

I say "there is no immediate need" to cross train, because when one eventually manages to train his complete TCMA style in a correct manner and then feels the need to enhance his arsenal, then he can do so in a logical and comprehensive manner rather than making clueless assumptions of perceived shortcomings of a system that he has no real grasp of.

Sure everything can be modified to meet situations, wrestling has no strikes, therefore it needs modified when dealing with a broader spectrum. you don't see wrestlers that come into the full on areas of fighting bringing half a$$ striking defenses to the table, no they go were it is specified to learn.

The fundamental point that you are missing is that wrestling is NOT a complete martial art, but major kung fu styles ARE!

didn't say it doesn't exist, only that it is a bland overview of something other systems specifically deal with.

How do you know that, if you have never practiced authentic kung fu and how all aspects and approaches complement each other.

As for Mr. patterson I respect his views even though he has different approaches to things, but more over i repect that he went out and put his approaches to the test.

The fact is that he is a TCMA-ist, an INTERNAL TCMA-IST at that!

I am sure that you have noticed that other MMA-ists here who claim "decades" of TCMA experience, don't even know what the Internals encompass! LOL!

I'm sure he's picked up things from others over the years, it's an ongoing process. He's learned in a resistant environment.

I have gathered that he does not like people to make assumptions about him. Suffice to say that sifu Patterson has said that in his days in Taiwan, the practice of ground fighting in kung fu schools was the NORM!

you call it cross training as if its a bad word, i call it learning to a fuller extent.

Cross training is only a bad word when the person who is cross training to "improve" his core TCMA style has not learned it to a fuller extent!

still waiting for that vid.

I am still waiting for you to acquire authentic TCMA knowledge so as to be able to appreciate the TCMA videos I keeping posting for you, just like the Tiger style ground fighting one that you are constantly failing to comprehend.

[Hardwork108]

If a system is not effective under limited rules, it won't be effective with NO rules.
To think otherwise is NOt logical, practical or demonstrative.

If you adapt most TMAs for ring fighting and then carry out appropriate training, then they will be effective, but that does not change the fact that some TMA schools do not consider sports fighting as important, even if they still teach combat effectiveness.

So...who then is going to take up the TCMA banner and enlighten Rogan and the un-educated MMA masses?
Anyone?

I really could not care less, as far as I am concerned the TCMAs are effective combat systems and their effectiveness is not related to the number of TCMA-ists in sports competitions. Of course, as you know for those TCMA-ists who want to do that, there are always the Sanda competitions.