Joe Rogan

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most SJ does not deal with ground. They are more oriented with throws. There are other SJ that deal with the ground but they are not that in depth.

SJ has ground work, in the sense of "fighting from the ground to get back up", but it has nothing that would be comparable to Judo's newaza MUCH LESS BJJ ground grappling.

[Lucas]

bjj evolved ground submission grappling to a whole new level. tcma's ground grappling is an equivelant to bjj's striking skills. a marriage of the two is a communion of the gods to make a man worthy of hero songs and blood sacrifices.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's an ideal opportunity for TCMA to evolve and develop. Why not? They always have, but the inertia against contemporary development is often huge. One issue is that TCMA serve a bandwidth of purposes, and only one of them is 'fighting'. They're deeply embedded in a traditional culture that often sees MA as vehicles for cultural transmission even more than for combat sport testing, or even self-defence. Comparing TCMA as most usually practiced, with MMA, is not to compare like-with-like. It'll be down to individuals to make changes to what they do. A lot of resistance to change in TCMA has to do with brand ownership (lineage claims and legitimization). But there are people out there making the neccessary changes, which in the longer term can only increase the 'bandwidth' of TCMA practice. I see this as a good thing, but it will mean syncretisms between Chinese and non-Chinese arts - something some would regard as heresy or betrayal. It'll happen anyway, and some people are already leading the way in this.

Quite so.
It is the stupid blind poor man that does not see the money that is placed in his very hand.
I remember the reluctence in judo to accept BJJ superious newaza, though that ended quickly because in open competition "inferiour" ranked BJJ were handing Judo BB their asses.
Judo adjusted accordingly, well...the smart dojos and instructors did at least.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

[Hardwork108]

It is a simple fact that NO TCMA has ground grappling on par with BJJ and I say it is a fact because:
Ground grappling is NOT prioritized in ANY TCMA.
I have yet to hear ANY TCMA that has any decent amount of experience in TCMA, including those that are in mainland china, Taiwan and Macao. say that there is ANY TCMA that is on par with BJJ in regards to ground grappling.
It just isn't there because it was NEVER prioritized as it was in BJJ.
It's not a slight on TCMA, it's just a fact.
In terms of ground grappling, BJJ is in a leage all its own.
Even submission grapplers core is BJJ.

The issue is not wether TCMA ground fighting is in par with BJJ or not, but wether they exist, and they DO!

I would suggest that these ground skills combined with the striking ones provide potent weapons against ground fighters.

[goju]

I would suggest that these ground skills combined with the striking ones provide potent weapons against ground fighters.

Not really

if its not on part with bjj or wrestling for example then its not going to be very effective against a style that specializes in it

[Hardwork108]

Not really

if its not on part with bjj or wrestling for example then its not going to be very effective against a style that specializes in it

I disagree!

Does what you say mean that everytime a Kung fu expert fights a BJJ-ist, he will loose, or that a black belt BJJ-ist can go to China and beat every single TCMA purist in a NHB fight? Of course not!

[goju]

I disagree!

Does that mean that everytime a Kung fu expert fights a BJJ-ist, he will loose? Of course not!

If it goes to the ground he will be choked or submitted quickly

The style that specializes in an aspect of fighting will always have an immense advantage over another art that merely has a little bit of said aspect.

If we want to take this kung fu ground fighting seriously for arguments sake then the kung fu grappler will have a limited amount of tools at his disposal once the fight goes to the ground whilst the bjj fighter will have an extremely wide array of submissions ,chokes, jacket manipulations, set ups, positions, etc,etc that the kung fu grappler has never experienced and thus will not know how to defend against it .

At best the actual few ground submissions or chokes you see in kung fu or karate is covered at your first months of white belt in Bjj.What does that tell you?

[Dragonzbane76]

Goju,
Thats what ive been stating. Something that specializes in something will be more proficent. KF has a bland overview of ground work and movement/positioning. The same can be stated about the stand up but reversed, but now days many cross train to gain for a styles lack in certain areas.

[Hardwork108]

If it goes to the ground he will be choked or submitted quickly

The style that specializes in an aspect of fighting will always have an immense advantage over another art that merely has a little bit of said aspect.

What about a style that specializes in striking on the ground; Breaking limbs on the ground; causing damage on the ground and getting up as soon as quickly as possible, or all of the above.

What I am trying to put across is that, as logical as what you say sounds, it is still not an absolute truth, as some "TCMA" people use that same reasoning to take to cross train in Western Boxing as it specializes in punching, whereas they see their given kung fu style as too broad in its techniques.

If we want to take this kung fu ground fighting seriously for arguments sake then the kung fu grappler will have a limited amount of tools at his disposal once the fight goes to the ground whilst the bjj fighter will have an extremely wide array of submissions ,chokes, jacket manipulations, set ups, positions, etc,etc that the kung fu grappler has never experienced and thus will not know how to defend against it .

Again, you make good points and they do make sense on one level.

My issue is with people that say that the TCMAs do not address the ground. This view is a complete and utter baloney, usually uttered by people whose TCMA experience is limited to the Mcdojo variety, or perhaps even a slightly better (than Mcdojo - read still mediocre) quality kung fu training.

Suffice to say that the TCMAs that address the ground scenario, also address the "not going down to the ground" scenario, as well.

You can say that BJJ specializes in ground fighting, and you would be right. Others will say that boxing specializes more in punching than the TCMAs, because they do not practice all the other techniques that are part of most kung fu styles (kicks, knees, the so called "low" percentage technique, etc.), and they would be right to on one level.

The same people could say that all you need is to mix boxing/kickboxing/MT, BJJ/wrestling, and you will be fine. However, practicing all of them together may not enable one to specialize in all of them. So, we are back to the MMA called kung fu, whose only weakness in my humble opinion is the way it is taught (usually by mediocre and clueless "sifus")and hence trained!

At best the actual few ground submissions or chokes you see in kung fu or karate is covered at your first months of white belt in Bjj.What does that tell you?

That tells me that their original design and TRAININ METHODOLOGY compensated for this "lack" in other ways. However, both of us being realistic people know that for the most part, kung fu and karate are not anymore trained in the way they were designed to be trained, hence it is understandable that people seek to compensate by cross training in arts that specialize in what their core arts are deemed to lack.

However, my issue remains with people who categorically (and cluelessly) state that the WHOLE of the TCMAs, do not address the ground - also, "Internals are fantasy"; "forms are useless"; "TCMAs are outdated"; "TCMAs are not practical for today's world", and other utterly ignorant and lost in the woods comments.

Of course, whe criticized these characters will turn around and claim years or even decades of experience in the TCMAs - the Internal included! LOL!

Anyway, it seems that we agree for the most part.

[Hardwork108]

Goju,
Thats what ive been stating. Something that specializes in something will be more proficent. KF has a bland overview of ground work and movement/positioning. The same can be stated about the stand up but reversed, but now days many cross train to gain for a styles lack in certain areas.

You will find that major kung fu styles will compensate for the areas they lack in their own way. The Chinese were always good in balancing their MAs and other arts, such as cooking. I would look more into the Yin and Yang philosophy which is ingrained into the TCMAs.

Of course, to fully appreciate this, you would actually need to train an authentic TCMA in an authentic kwoon????

[Frost]

The problem is when those that do claim to have seen/trained in these aspects of TCMA (you here and ten tigers for example on the ground fighting thread) no own can post a clip of it in action, strange you seem to have all the time to talk about it and lament the fact so few have the real deal…but no time to film and show it? If its that important to you to rectify this gross error is so many peoples thinking, who don’t you simply put a clip up to show what you mean surely that would be better than countless posts on the point?

[Hardwork108]

The problem is when those that do claim to have seen/trained in these aspects of TCMA (you here and ten tigers for example on the ground fighting thread) no own can post a clip of it in action, strange you seem to have all the time to talk about it and lament the fact so few have the real deal…but no time to film and show it? If its that important to you to rectify this gross error is so many peoples thinking, who don’t you simply put a clip up to show what you mean surely that would be better than countless posts on the point?

Putting a clip up or not, does not change the fact that the TCMAs - at least some styles - address the ground scenario!

[goju]

What about a style that specializes in striking on the ground; Breaking limbs on the ground; causing damage on the ground and getting up as soon as quickly as possible, or all of the above.

A bjj or judo player can easily break your limb. The only thing that stops one from doing that is the rules of a competition and even then some unfortunate people still get injured.

I knew someone who got put in a knee bar by a sparring partner who went too rough and he got his knee torn so badly he could not longer train or have any means of employment because his leg was useless.


Various grappling arts like the ones i noted above have quick sweeps and reversals that allow you to get up quickly if you want the fight to stand up. In fact if you watch mma you will see this employed. The fighter on the bottom will scoot out from the bottom or reverse the position where he is on top then get to his feet quickly

[Hardwork108]

A bjj or judo player can easily break your limb. The only thing that stops one from doing that is the rules of a competition and even then some unfortunate people still get injured.

I knew someone who got put in a knee bar by a sparring partner who went too rough and he got his knee torn so badly he could not longer train or have any means of employment because his leg was useless.


Various grappling arts like the ones i noted above have quick sweeps and reversals that allow you to get up quickly if you want the fight to stand up. In fact if you watch mma you will see this employed. The fighter on the bottom will scoot out from the bottom or reverse the position where he is on top then get to his feet quickly

I am negating the ability of wrestlers to break limbs, it is just that other arts do it as well and sometimes using different techniques.